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running rail alongside busy rail corridors is no worse than running them alongside GA 400, a busy freeway. the rail corridor along dekalb avenue is a pretty busy railway and they built the east/west line along there. the marta train doesn't use the same tracks and isn't going to 'block' traffic on these railbeds. the railbeds simply present an opportunity that is much cheaper than building tunnels— following any existing path on the surface is cheaper than tunneling. the only big difference between railbeds is whether they're abandoned or not— if they're abandoned you can use the entire railbed. if they're not, it doesn't matter whether the rail corridor is busy or not, you can't interrupt the traffic.
you do bring up good points here. building a track anywhere besides the existing 400 corridor is going to cost exponentially more, especially crossing the river and whatnot.
unfortunately, running alongside 400 is not without a hitch either. along the holcomb bride road and mansell road exits, 400 has spots in which there is no right of way on both sides— neighborhoods back right up to the lanes with sound proofing panels.
however, i do agree with you that running a north line is pretty much going to have to be along the 400 corridor entirely. the only places i would argue differently would be
-along northridge road, where i think the station needs to be in alignment with highway 9 instead of 400 due to both right of way issues and traffic issues.
-along holcomb bridge road, where the rail would either have to be underground or diverge from 400 in some other way.
It is worse if the extra right of way does not exist and/or the train operator is saving room to add more delivery or mainline track. They are really reluctant to release control of it...as are local and state planners. It also becomes a huge issue when you start considering the integration of any commuter rail in the future. Admittedly, it is bigger of an issue in Atlanta than most other cities, because we are such a large rail hub and have more congestion...particularly to the northwest and north of downtown.
Also note in my "jab," if you want to call it that, I also mentioned the right of way issue. Many railbeds in the area (like that running north of downtown through the convention center and northward) does not have extra right of way.
I'm not saying this to be jab or be mean.... I'm just saying we can't plan out transit by simply saying... oh there is a railbed there or there isn't.
As far as the area around Mansell Rd... There is plenty of ROW. North and south. Atlanta, ga - Google Maps
The area around Holcomb Bridge has plenty of ROW, but it looks like they would need to reposition a street or two (raintree dr), which is probably constructed on private property. So there were be a few affected properties, but you don't have to buy out any buildings or homes for the most part, which controls the costs. In this case... if you did it would probably be much much cheaper to buy out the apartment complex in question, build the line, and resell the development for TOD expansion. However, I don't think that is necessary.
I know in parts the sound barrier is built right at the edge of the freeway. Just because it is built at the edge of the freeway doesn't mean the state doesn't own right of way on the other side. It means they built the sound barrier there to be more effective.
The big problems are
-hilly terrain
-potential for public resistance
-and shear costs, because of the long length of the corridor
It is worse if the extra right of way does not exist and/or the train operator is saving room to add more delivery or mainline track. They are really reluctant to release control of it...as are local and state planners. It also becomes a huge issue when you start considering the integration of any commuter rail in the future. Admittedly, it is bigger of an issue in Atlanta than most other cities, because we are such a large rail hub and have more congestion...particularly to the northwest and north of downtown.
Also note in my "jab," if you want to call it that, I also mentioned the right of way issue. Many railbeds in the area (like that running north of downtown through the convention center and northward) does not have extra right of way.
I'm not saying this to be jab or be mean.... I'm just saying we can't plan out transit by simply saying... oh there is a railbed there or there isn't.
i'm aware of this. i'm saying that an existing railbed gives us a cheaper opportunity to run track next to it, rather than, say, a river or a public access road. stop nitpicking.
Quote:
As far as the area around Mansell Rd... There is plenty of ROW. North and south. Atlanta, ga - Google Maps
The area around Holcomb Bridge has plenty of ROW, but it looks like they would need to reposition a street or two (raintree dr), which is probably constructed on private property. So there were be a few affected properties, but you don't have to buy out any buildings or homes for the most part, which controls the costs. In this case... if you did it would probably be much much cheaper to buy out the apartment complex in question, build the line, and resell the development for TOD expansion. However, I don't think that is necessary.
I know in parts the sound barrier is built right at the edge of the freeway. Just because it is built at the edge of the freeway doesn't mean the state doesn't own right of way on the other side. It means they built the sound barrier there to be more effective.
the biggest problem around the holcomb bridge/mansell road area is that much of that right of way is a giant swamp. it's hard to see from above but that's mainly why there isn't much development there. i'm sure some of it is solid ground, though, and they've built plenty of boardwalk through the swamp for a walking trail, so i guess it wouldn't be too hard to build a track through there— the biggest problem there is making sure it's high enough that it doesn't flood, and the foundations are deep enough to keep it sturdy.
Quote:
The big problems are
-hilly terrain
-potential for public resistance
-and shear costs, because of the long length of the corridor
yes, this is why there wasn't existing rail here in the first place, which was part of my point. it's hilly, you have to cross a river and several creeks (vickery and big), and there isn't a nice "valley" to cut through.
I think the reason why the Bankhead extension isn't explored has less to do with racial undertones, but more to do with picking the technology that will eventually go all the way through Cobb to Kennesaw. In the long-run LRT is just much cheaper, flexible, and easier to fund through the whole corridor. However, that does come with drawbacks. The other interesting thing about the rail alignment the Bankhead route uses... there isn't much places to provide service (inside the Perimter), because the alignment terminates into the huge rail yards just north of Bankhead and it would be hard to route to Cumberland, which is the major destination center the corridor is trying to reach from both sides.[/quote]
Actually that is a problem with all the Cobb Galleria routes. There really isn't much inside 285 and south of 75.
point -marta has pretty much said hrt will not be able to go south/southeast from emory. The right of way and engineering costs would just be way to much. If they go with hrt... It will be a spur between lindbergh and emory as presented and that is it.
marta isn't trying too hard. They immediately dropped following the csx line south to near east lake (the long time plan) because of neighborhood opposition in that short stretch south of north decatur. I don't think that would be a good place to put it, but the point is that they are not willing to rock the boat at all. I doubt they have seriously looked at the costs to the southeast. They suddenly added a tunnel during the tplost decision process in the lindberg corridor and they had been looking at that for many months.
question - given the cost differences... (actually total it up and compare) and the fact that hrt really won't operate much faster between lindbergh and emory... Is it really worth the extra cost?
(for me, it just seems like alot of extra expense and not much more advantage...)
the advantage is the connections without transfer to the north so that you get discretionary transit riders instead of only the transit dependent and the very few transit by choice. Those people aren't afraid of buses. So the question could be asked about lrt vs. Buses. It won't operate much faster, costs a lot more, is much less flexible, doesn't generate much more ridership (if any) and provides less door to door service. The idea is not to connect avondale to lindberg. You can do that on a longer route going through 5 points. The idea is connecting both ends to emory/cdc.
-given that marta hasn't put hrt going south/east of emory on the table at all and the only way they will push forward that way is lrt... Would you still rather it be hrt, even if that means no east line, decatur, n. Decatur or avondale connection?
So yes.
Last edited by bu2; 01-04-2012 at 05:03 PM..
Reason: clarity
it's a plan on how to connect the clifton corridor to avondale.
I have thought the logical route from Avondale was along Dekalb Industrial (which IS industrial and has the potential for greater density). The only issue there would be whether there are flooding issues, due to the parallel creek, forcing the route to be elevated and increasing the cost. The rest of the way would follow North Decatur. Not sure if there are engineering issues as it is hilly and it crosses a creek. There would be political issues as its currently residential. But its a street that shouldn't be residential and houses are already being used for commercial purposes near Suburban Plaza. The cost of buying property would be less than tunneling. You could improve the street for vehicles and add bike lanes and landscaping while adding the rail.
that is an interesting idea— you talked about above ground rail, that's certainly cheaper than underground— i'm not super familiar with the area but i've driven through it plenty of times— where do you think the point is that the track would have to go underground? i'm thinking somewhere around suburban plaza, probably right south of north decatur.
If that's true, then I have a real problem with the neighborhood resistance to a MARTA line going north from near East Lake station up to Emory. We're talking Decatur, for God's sakes. I thought they *wanted* to do things that saved the environment? Or do they only want to make changes that affect other people and not themselves? I'm sensing some hypocrisy here.
(Note: This does not speak for all Decaturans, just those near the rail corridor who are resistant to the plan.)
The marta train expansion should mirror the interstate system including 285 with park and ride lots near interstate exits.
The atlanta beltway is a joke as far as transportation is concerned. Given the number of planned stops , length of the loop, speed of the "train bus" it would take at least 2 hours to go a complete trip around. It would be a very nice public park and they could pave a trail for walkers/bikes like the silver comet trail, but the cost is so high it doesn't make sense.
The atlanta beltway is a joke as far as transportation is concerned. Given the number of planned stops , length of the loop, speed of the "train bus" it would take at least 2 hours to go a complete trip around.
Speed isn't the only consideration in transportation.
The marta train expansion should mirror the interstate system including 285 with park and ride lots near interstate exits.
The atlanta beltway is a joke as far as transportation is concerned. Given the number of planned stops , length of the loop, speed of the "train bus" it would take at least 2 hours to go a complete trip around. It would be a very nice public park and they could pave a trail for walkers/bikes like the silver comet trail, but the cost is so high it doesn't make sense.
I'm in agreement with Arjay....
especially in this case.
You are thinking too much like a surbuban commuter that needs to travel 30 miles to get work in this situation. That is not necessarily the case.
The Beltline (not beltway!) is a fairly small circle at 22 miles miles long.
I don't think it would take a whole 2 hours to get around ... 1 hour is more like it, but you aren't as wrong as you think... It would have lots of stops and probably move at an average of 30 mph (including stops). In other words compared to the existing MARTA heavy rail or traveling on the freeway... it would be slow.
But... you aren't thinking about where people would be traveling to and from. Very few people would travel all the way around the beltline. It isn't designed to be a bypass or take on many outside commuters either.
It is designed to encourage dense residential growth along an old industrial corridor. Most people will not travel on the beltline more than a few miles. After which they will either a) transfer to a Marta train or b) stay on the streetcar/LRT, which will travel on the street for about 1.5-2.5 miles (mostly North Ave., 10th st., and the new downtown street car alignment) straight into Midtown or Downtown where they need to be (without a transfer or finding parking). A typical commute might be 15 minutes, but they aren't traveling very far at all.
Also remember... transit is only 1/3 the cost of the Beltline and the Beltline is producing much of its own money through a Tax allocation district.
Say you take a large, polluted industrial property that brings in $10,000 in taxes/year. You build parks, clean it, and prepare it for development (and promise transit in the future). That brings demand in the private sector to live there, so a developer builds a condo building with 120 units bringing in $1000/year in taxes + an extra $10,000 from the building association. That is $130,000 in tax revenue in just one year from one development with fairly affordable housing. That is an increase of $120,000/year. The TAD lasts for 30 years, but also takes many years to develop. While the transit is expensive... over time... it is partially self-funding. The main argument for placing it on the TSPLOST is it will help build the non-beltline streetcar portions and jumpstart development on the beltline to help it generate its own funds faster.
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