Why Does Society Have Such A Low Opinion Of Atheists? (scientific, salvation)
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From a logical perspective, I do have more respect for the intelligence of an agnostic than I do for an athiest.Simply put, you don't have enough information to make that call and neither you or I are smart enough to make that call.
KAINTUCK, you have to keep one hand tied behind your back just to make it fair!
MontanaGuy, You started a thread in which you used imaginary self deprecating words indicating how you thought some people think. I never gave one kudos to those remarks. Not one. Read the damn thread man. You sound like Al Sharpton dodging imaginary white demons. I stated what I believe to be a logical fact and that is all I ever stated and was attacked by at least ten different people,some stating that they were Christians telling me how awful a person I was because I said Atheism in my opinion is a narcissic position. I provided many sound arguements why I think that is true. You can neither prove the fact that their is no God any better than I can prove that there is a God. In my reasoning if a man believes he has developed and evolved a sense of reasoning that suggests there is no God, it leaves me to believe that is a narcissic concept. It doesn't mean I think he is narcissic in every phase of his life. It means that I think he is narcissic philosophically to come to that conclusion. I stated all those things without anyone even knowing I had a position relative to Christianity but everyone automatically assumed I was an athiest bashing Christian. Any objective person that took the time to read my comments would surely find the piling on hilarious. Perhaps it is your lack of objecticity that leads you to what I believe to be your errant philosophical conclusions. You would be wrong to think I have some disdain for you simply because I think you are wrong in your philosphical conclusions. What I have heard here is self deprecation which makes me think you question your professed beliefs. That is a good thing.From a logical perspective, I do have more respect for the intelligence of an agnostic than I do for an athiest.Simply put, you don't have enough information to make that call and neither you or I are smart enough to make that call.
You obviously are confused by the meaning of atheist and agnostic. Not every atheist is a strong atheist. Agnosticism is related to epistemology, not existence.
You can neither prove the fact that their is no God any better than I can prove that there is a God. In my reasoning if a man believes he has developed and evolved a sense of reasoning that suggests there is no God, it leaves me to believe that is a narcissic concept.
First of all, when I wrote the original post I was trying to throw in a little humour when I referred to peeping toms, convicted felons, etc. because I guess that's just my personality although I'm completely serious about how most people in American society view atheists. Your comments confirm that point of view and you haven't presented any kind of coherent statement that backs up your thoughts about narcissism. The reason I'm an atheist is simply because there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that would suggest that our universe is inhabited by a God. Everything that I'm aware of makes me believe that God is a product of the human imagination and that God was made in man's image, not the other way around. Narcissism describes someone who thinks that they're the center of importance which sounds much more like a religious point of view as others have stated. The Christian religion would have us believe that human beings are at the center of a battle between two powerful forces, God and satan, and that we've been granted dominion over all of the life on this planet. That is the very definition of narcissism and it's the opposite of how I view my own importance. I don't have any pretentions that my activities as a human being are of such grand importance. I just try to live my life as best I can and try to treat others with respect and dignity. I guess you were trying to come up with a word that describes atheists that wasn't very flattering and narcissism popped into your head. You'd better go back to the drawing board, that one doesn't make any sense.
Montanaguy that is a good summary conclusion of your perspective which I respect your tone in all your posts. I maintain my perspective that narcissism is a perfect word to describe the definitive notion that any man could possibly possess the intellect to discern that which cannot be discerned with any notion of objectivity. i.e. There is no God.
I have no interest here in insulting anyone. I damn sure will defend myself though. I think the term narcissism cuts to the quick and that is the problem. I made it clear from the beginning my debate is philosophical. I'm not trying to say that athiests sit around the house all day engaged in narcissic hedonistic exploits. Never said that once. I said the thought concept that any man regardless of intellectual capacity could assert there is no God is self engrandizing. If you like that better I'll consider that though I don't mind making you squirm. Fact is I can't spell engrandizing and I dont have the time to look it up.
The sum total of human knowledge isn't a pimple on the butt of the concept of God. To assert you have enough knowledge to make that assertion I perceive as narcissic. Conversely, "there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that there is not a God". Methinks just the opposite. If you put a computer togeather, the software and a network, someone created that, it didn't just appear. From my perspective it is the same as "pushing down your throat" the notion that their is a God. All Christians express that in "faith". I guess if you were not so adamant about pushing your beliefs down my throat we wouldn't have a problem. Sorta like the guy who referenced his athiest child on these posts. Give me a break,geez.
The greater lesson for me on these posts is the totally irrational disdain secularists have for opposing points of view. Many of these people did not even know they were bashing a Christian. I answered you honestly because you asked me. Prior to that moment, the only proof anyone had that I might be a Christian is someones speak of an "Aura of Meanness" -something like that. If a self proclaimed athiest is so astute at the perception of a man's aura, well I am certainly impressed with his propensity to express faith. I associate aura with spiritual. Something you can't sense with the ordinary senses just something you feel. I even had some little flip that didn't want to be in league with my kind of Christian. Even though I had never professed to be one. If I were a Christian though I wouldn't deny it. I do my homework and denial is the ultimate sin of the Christian faith. If I were a Christian I would be here spending time trying to take you with me to heaven not applaude you for being the supreme individual.You can't be a Christian and a secularist,-well maybe if your Hillary Clinton.
-If you believe in God and there is no God you die.
-If you do not believe in God and there is no God you die.
-If you do not believe in God and there is a God you die.
-If you believe in God & there is a God you live.
That is the way I was enculturated from youth. The odds don't seem bad to me. Hey, if I'm wrong, we all die togeather. Would you be offended if I told you to have a blessed day? I may have to remove that from my expressions. No manger scenes, no "In God We Trust". Next thing I know you'll want seperate bathrooms or perhaps a monument of Marx next to Lincoln. "Why can't we all just get along".
It's simply amazing that so many people still cling to Pascal's Wager, which has to be one of the most flawed arguments ever presented. (Not to mention that it reduces faith in God to betting on a horse.)
The sum total of human knowledge isn't a pimple on the butt of the concept of God. To assert you have enough knowledge to make that assertion I perceive as narcissic.
But this is not applicable to the knowledge of god. It really does not matter if I know the chemical composition of my sneakers, or even if anybody on the planet knows what a chemical is.
When people talk about god (christians, atheists, anybody), we are not talking about some being hiding in a far corner of the universe. We are talking about a being that is involved with humanity in some way, with characterestics that are described by the bible (or some other religious dogma). Therefore it is completely reasonable to discuss the existence, or non-existence of god, as what we are talking about is chrisiangod, or moslemgod, or hindugod, or pagangod...
When we talk about god, we tend to agree on the following generic characteristics
-god created the universe
-god wants people to behave in a certain way
-there are rewards or punishments for deviating from this
-god is all-powerful/knowing/present
-god may have communicated with people (bible, koran, etc)
So given this common assumptions, it is reasonable for the atheist to make a statement on the existence of this type of god.
If you want to argue for the existence of a type of god that does not substantially agree with my 5 points above, lets go. You will have a much easier time, and I will not argue very hard.
For the record, I am a strong atheist with respect to the christian god (and others, but this board is predominantly christian), but a weak atheist with respect to gods in general.
I think there is a huge misconception that if a person does not have a deity or deities to lead their life, they are incapable of making good, moral decisions and/or live a happy/fulfilled life. I recall dealing with some very religious folk back when I was in high school and they told me that the reason I was so unhappy was because I had no guide in my life. Funny thing was that I was feeling particularly giddy that day because life had been going well for quite a while and I felt luck was on my side. I told them my family morals and my conscience were my two guides to life and they had guided me to be a straight A student, a public speaking state champ, and to volunteer my time to Big Brothers and Big Sisters. Their response? "If you had God in your life, you'd be even better, happier, and and more fulfilled." Sometimes you can't win :eyeroll:
I guess it is just not fathomable for some people who have been "guided" by religion all their life that people without a religion can be just as satisfied with life. I don't really blame these people, because they really haven't known any other way of living. By their perspective, they probably would be completely lost and perhaps even rebellious if they did not have that religious presence in their life.
Just as you don't blame us...we can't blame you because obviously you have never known any other way of life. If not for our faith and respect for GOD we'd all be completely lost. If you were to one day accept Jesus as you Lord and Savior and become "saved" or "born again" you would come to realize that your life was incomplete previously and then you would begin to give proper respect and credit to GOD for all the morals and material things and self-achievements that you currently attribute to your family morals and conscience. Bottomline when you know better you are expected to do better....right now you don't know better.
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Smerky Girl
