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Hello. I'm curious: To all of you who consider yourselves to be atheists or agnostics (whether you call yourselves an "atheist" or "agnostic" or "agnostic atheist" or "atheistic agnostic" or "secular humanist" or "ethical humanist" or simply a "humanist" or a "Bright" or whatever other term of your choice), do you regularly attend a Unitarian gathering place (whether calling itself a Unitarian Universalist Church or Congregation or Fellowship) or an Ethical Culture Society gathering place? If you do, why do you do so? What does it do for you and (particulary for Unitarian Universalist gathering places) does it not feel too "church"-like for you as one who likely considers yourself some variant of a non-believer?
Nearly 30 years ago, I used to attend a Unitarian Church in a major Eastern city and attendees would gather on Sundays in the church sanctuary, sing songs (Christian-derived or Buddhist-derived or other hymns, etc.), listen to a sermon, say prayers of different types, etc. etc. etc. . . . just like one does in a Christian church. And the sermons would be delivered by someone called a minister or reverend and they (he or she) would wear long flowing robes, etc. etc. . . . in other words, having all the trappings, pomp & circumstance of a Christian or Catholic church. If you are a non-believer, what do you get out of going to such a gathering place each week?
NOTE: Thiis is NOT meant at all as a criticism of those who choose to do so (for all I know, I may go back to this practice myself). My question is: What do YOU gain from it? What does it do for you? Do you not feel pressured or compelled to joining in practices & rituals that seem rather "religious" (singing hymns, saying what sound like prayers . . . as though you are communicating to & asking for blessings or interventions by some conception of "God")?
Of course I'm aware. I even am aware of all the nuanced descriptions of both (e.g., some are "agnostic atheists", some are "atheistic agnostics" . . . and there are even "agnostic theists", though I wasn't including them in my question).
I'm focusing on those who would describe themselves as NON-BELIEVERS in any particular god of an organized religion (whichever label they choose to attach to themselves otherwise, such as "atheist" or "agnostic" or "humanist" or whatever). The question is "Why do you, as someone who considers yourself a non-believer in any particular established religion, regularly go to a Unitarian Universalist gathering place? What does it do or fulfill for you?"
I haven't ever attended a UU church but I decided recently I was going to try the one in the neighboring town as soon as I'm up to it. What I'm hoping to "get" from it is a sense of community, meeting and interacting with other upstanding and self-sufficient people who care about something other than bashing you over the head with the bible, stealing, pillaging, lying, etc. etc.....that seems to be all that the people I have come in contact with lately are about, so I have to try something different and hope I don't get disappointed.
I'm new to atheism/agnosticism and I've really been struggling with the loss of having a "god" to turn to, whether he was real or not. There is a certain coping mechanism in religion and with that gone I can't figure out what to do with emotions and hard times. I've been all over the place.....a real mess so I need to find a place that gives me some sense of peace and hope that there is life outside of religion. And be around decent human beings.
I've been all over the place.....a real mess so I need to find a place that gives me some sense of peace and hope that there is life outside of religion. And be around decent human beings.
It sounds like you are looking for relationship rather than religion. There are a few gathering places in your area that offer exactly that - Relationship not religion.
I haven't ever attended a UU church but I decided recently I was going to try the one in the neighboring town as soon as I'm up to it. What I'm hoping to "get" from it is a sense of community, meeting and interacting with other upstanding and self-sufficient people who care about something other than bashing you over the head with the bible, stealing, pillaging, lying, etc. etc.....that seems to be all that the people I have come in contact with lately are about, so I have to try something different and hope I don't get disappointed.
I'm new to atheism/agnosticism and I've really been struggling with the loss of having a "god" to turn to, whether he was real or not. There is a certain coping mechanism in religion and with that gone I can't figure out what to do with emotions and hard times. I've been all over the place.....a real mess so I need to find a place that gives me some sense of peace and hope that there is life outside of religion. And be around decent human beings.
That sounds reasonable. In other words, just because one might think of him/herself as being some variant of a "non-believer", doesn't mean that we don't have a "spiritual" or "numinous" dimension to ourselves (definition of "numinous": awe-inspiring, evoking a sense of the transcendent, mystical or sublime). Wikipedia says that '"the numinous experience has a personal quality to it, in that the person feels to be in communion with a wholly other. The numinous experience can lead in different cases to belief in deities, the supernatural, the sacred, the holy, and/or the transcendent." Even Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, Carl Sagan, Albet Einstein, and many other atheists or agnostics or humanists speak (or spoke) of the "numinous" dimension of life . . . of how we sometimes feel connected to something larger than or beyond ourselves ("transcending" the material or physical preoccupations of our lives . . . something analogous to a "spiritual" experience).
What religion gives people (even if it is not epistemologically true in its claims and stories) is simplicity and pat answers, as well as rules and guidelines to live by. And oftentimes, there is comfort in taking part in rituals that are soothing (singing, holding hands, drinking wine & breaking bread together, speaking in noble terms, telling stories of triumph over adversity and hope, et al) and it is comforting and assuring for some to have pat rules to live by (where you have "the answers" all laid out for you and are convinced that these "answers" come from a supreme divine source). It removes ambiguity and uncertainty in life (if you can otherwise convince yourself and hold on to the belief that its claims are, in fact, true). Then again, there are those religionists who (whether they realize it or not) do not really care if the claims are epistemologically "true" and "correct" or not; the religion fulfills some emotional or other need in them & they therefore hold on to it. My deceased mother said (shortly before she died): "I know there is a God . . . because it makes me feel good" and also "I know there is a God because I feel it in my heart". They sound like such simple and unsophisticated statements but are rather revealing, as this is how many believers truly think. That is, if it "feels" right or good to them and fulfills some emotional need(s), this is all they need to embrace it.
And it also "feels good" to be able to be part of a great multitude or population of people (the worldwide community of believers) that think the same way; it provides a vast social support system. We all know that religionists vastly outnumber non-religionists in the world-at-large and there is strength (and comfort) in numbers.
By the way, I was raised to be a religious Jew and, in my later adult years, was a Protestant evangelical conservative Christian . . . and I now consider myself as an agnostic. So I do understand what it means to be a person of faith and understand its appeal.
You know I hadn't really known about what the Unitarians believed until you posted this, but I think there exactly what I've been looking for. You guys have an inspired me to go visit one. I don't believe in the supernatural, but I believe in community, ethics, human dignity, and the numinative dimension of human life. This could turn out nice, I'll give it a look and report back.
It sounds like you are looking for relationship rather than religion. There are a few gathering places in your area that offer exactly that - Relationship not religion.
Is there something wrong with that?
For some, relationship and community can be a source of redemption and faith. I think that qualifies as spirituality.
That sounds reasonable. In other words, just because one might think of him/herself as being some variant of a "non-believer", doesn't mean that we don't have a "spiritual" or "numinous" dimension to ourselves (definition of "numinous": awe-inspiring, evoking a sense of the transcendent, mystical or sublime). Wikipedia says that '"the numinous experience has a personal quality to it, in that the person feels to be in communion with a wholly other. The numinous experience can lead in different cases to belief in deities, the supernatural, the sacred, the holy, and/or the transcendent." Even Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, Carl Sagan, Albet Einstein, and many other atheists or agnostics or humanists speak (or spoke) of the "numinous" dimension of life . . . of how we sometimes feel connected to something larger than or beyond ourselves ("transcending" the material or physical preoccupations of our lives . . . something analogous to a "spiritual" experience).
What religion gives people (even if it is not epistemologically true in its claims and stories) is simplicity and pat answers, as well as rules and guidelines to live by. And oftentimes, there is comfort in taking part in rituals that are soothing (singing, holding hands, drinking wine & breaking bread together, speaking in noble terms, telling stories of triumph over adversity and hope, et al) and it is comforting and assuring for some to have pat rules to live by (where you have "the answers" all laid out for you and are convinced that these "answers" come from a supreme divine source). It removes ambiguity and uncertainty in life (if you can otherwise convince yourself and hold on to the belief that its claims are, in fact, true). Then again, there are those religionists who (whether they realize it or not) do not really care if the claims are epistemologically "true" and "correct" or not; the religion fulfills some emotional or other need in them & they therefore hold on to it. My deceased mother said (shortly before she died): "I know there is a God . . . because it makes me feel good" and also "I know there is a God because I feel it in my heart". They sound like such simple and unsophisticated statements but are rather revealing, as this is how many believers truly think. That is, if it "feels" right or good to them and fulfills some emotional need(s), this is all they need to embrace it.
And it also "feels good" to be able to be part of a great multitude or population of people (the worldwide community of believers) that think the same way; it provides a vast social support system. We all know that religionists vastly outnumber non-religionists in the world-at-large and there is strength (and comfort) in numbers.
By the way, I was raised to be a religious Jew and, in my later adult years, was a Protestant evangelical conservative Christian . . . and I now consider myself as an agnostic. So I do understand what it means to be a person of faith and understand its appeal.
Salt & Light doesn't seem to get, whereas you do. I am not looking for relationships, I'm looking for community and like-minded people. If any of that turns into personal relationships, fine, but I think I'm a little too cautious these days for that. I was never a church-goer even as a Christian so I don't miss that part.....I wouldn't bother with going to a UU fellowship if I thought it would be like going to "church".
However, I do live in the deep south and it's very likely that this UU fellowship could be filled with religious people who are worshiping a god, but that's ok as long as they keep it to themselves and I feel sure they would at a UU fellowship. The only way I'll know is to visit.
Why would I go to a place like that when I never went to church when I was a Christian? Because like I said before, I don't have the "crutch" or support of a "god" or bible any longer to turn to and I need to find ways to deal with life's hardships and disappointments without religion and other outside sources. I'm not spiritual either, at least I don't think I am but I'm not against "feeling" some sort of spirituality in whatever form it comes.
If the UU's dwell too much in Christianity or talking about a god, the bible or anything to do with religion, I won't be back.
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