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Are you saying that animals do not mourn their dead?
No, I am not saying that. I don't think that is the case of insects and the like, but for higher forms like mammals, they probably do.
But my question referred to whether the poster to whom I responded would be just as distraught at the death of a puppy as she (I assume the person is a she) would a baby or toddler.
No, I am not saying that. I don't think that is the case of insects and the like, but for higher forms like mammals, they probably do.
But my question referred to whether the poster to whom I responded would be just as distraught at the death of a puppy as she (I assume the person is a she) would a baby or toddler.
Charles
That would depend on if it is her puppy, and who's infant....If it is her puppy, and the infant belonged to someone she doesn't know, then the death of the puppy would case her more grief....
dobeable: we may be smarter in the "self aware" sense, but our instinct sucks. We're balls of weak, screaming, dim-witted meat until we hit adolescence. We have to be inefficiently toted around for a year because we can't communicate or even feed ourselves. Everything we know, we have to be taught. that includes spirituality. Really, the only thing that humans have going for them is that we're highly adaptable. the more humans study other species, the more we learn that we're not the only tool users even. heck, watch the videos on youtube of the octopi using coconut shells for armor.
as for the "do you eat meat" argument? you bet I do. I'm an omnivore. I eat whatever doesn't kill me (and if I was in the wild, having no instinct, I'd probably eat something that did). Are you hinting at the idea that I'd eat people? Now, humans are like many social animals and try to continue the survival of the pack so its against our nature, but if I had no other choice? YOU BET I WOULD. NOM NOM NOM.
I would say there are those who would if they could. Also, why do so many people concentrate on only the bad of humanity?
Charles
I'm not sure what your point is. Humans would run as fast as cheetahs if we could. Humans would have fight bears with our bare hands if we could. I was talking about reality.
I think so many people concentrate on the negative effects of humanity because the negatives generally outweigh the positives.
dobeable: we may be smarter in the "self aware" sense, but our instinct sucks. We're balls of weak, screaming, dim-witted meat until we hit adolescence. We have to be inefficiently toted around for a year because we can't communicate or even feed ourselves. Everything we know, we have to be taught. that includes spirituality. Really, the only thing that humans have going for them is that we're highly adaptable. the more humans study other species, the more we learn that we're not the only tool users even. heck, watch the videos on youtube of the octopi using coconut shells for armor.
as for the "do you eat meat" argument? you bet I do. I'm an omnivore. I eat whatever doesn't kill me (and if I was in the wild, having no instinct, I'd probably eat something that did). Are you hinting at the idea that I'd eat people? Now, humans are like many social animals and try to continue the survival of the pack so its against our nature, but if I had no other choice? YOU BET I WOULD. NOM NOM NOM.
the animals cant experience art's, music(might be able to hear it but not compose or apreciate it)dance,love ,commpassion, tolerance, patience,care,nobility,honor,any where near what we can-they are completely in the mode of ignorance
and that question about eating meat was to that particular person because she said animals shouldnt be treated differently than humans
and if your i were to bump into you on an iceberg and we were starving,you wont get me cause i'll get u first...and i'll bring some ketchup
Animals come up in this forum often, and in various contexts. I've seen threads about whether it's ethical to eat animals, whether hunting is good or bad, whether animals have souls, whether they go to heaven, and so on. I've read posts from people who consider their pets as important as any human family member, and from people who don't undertsand that at all. But that vast majority of people I know, regardless of their beliefs, consider humans to be at the top of the totem pole. Christians point to the Bible and say that we were given dominion over animals. I've heard people of non-denominational faiths say that humans are God's highest expression of Himself. Those who believe in reincarnation and that souls incarnate as animals believe that they incarnate "upward" to humans. Whenever the topic of evolution comes up, inevitably some people are disgusted by the idea of humans having evolved from monkeys (yes, I know that's not what evolution says).
I'm reminded of that great Steven Wright line: "I used to think that my brain was the most important part of my body -- until I realized what part of my body was thinking that." In other words, our checklist of what constitutes "superior" qualities in a species just happens to consist of those qualities that humans possess. Yes, we have the greatest raw IQ of any species (as far as we know). But we can't best a grizzly bear or a shark in a fight. We can't survive unaided in many places that animals can. We can't run as fast as a cheetah. We don't have the visual acuity of an eagle, or the sense of smell of a dog.
I can't objectively say that humans are "better" than other species. Like any species, we have an instinctual vested interest in our own survival, and most people translate that survival instinct into a feeling of innate superiority. The difference is that no other species (as far as we know) even considers questions like this. I doubt that a lion empathizes with the gazelle she kills and eats.
I have no real point, other than to say that I appreciate and respect animals (to varying degrees, admittedly) for what they are: well adapted to their particular niches, and important to the global ecosystem. I love many of them as pets, and enjoy the connections I have. I do eat meat. I've always admired the Native American view of animals, which is pretty similar. I find nothing at all distasteful about being a member of the ape family. Let's face it: humans have habits that are as disgusting as those of any animal we care to name.
From my perspective we are just animals living by the only natual law: Only the strong will survive. We put ourselves before other animals, but honestly any other animal on the planet would do the same.
Does that make it right? Of course not. But human behavior only verifies our true animalistic nature. If we were truly higher beings, we would take better care of the planet, rather than just grab all we can get our grubby little hands on as fast as we possibly can without regard to the future consequences.
the animals cant experience art's, music(might be able to hear it but not compose or apreciate it)dance,love ,commpassion, tolerance, patience,care,nobility,honor,any where near what we can-they are completely in the mode of ignorance
Are you sure animals can't experience these things? Have they told you that?
If not how do you know? Birds appreciate and compose music, whales sing, some animals are compassionate, tolerant, patient etc. and elephants not only appreciate art, but do many original paintings...What? You don't believe me? Check it out!
the animals cant experience art's, music(might be able to hear it but not compose or apreciate it)dance,love ,commpassion, tolerance, patience,care,nobility,honor,any where near what we can-they are completely in the mode of ignorance
and that question about eating meat was to that particular person because she said animals shouldnt be treated differently than humans
and if your i were to bump into you on an iceberg and we were starving,you wont get me cause i'll get u first...and i'll bring some ketchup
Now, the all those things you listed are human concepts. We gave names to things based on our self awareness. That doesn't mean that animals don't exhibit those traits (I know that's not what you meant). However, its still a matter of opinion on which kind of intelligence is better. We're going to say self-awareness because that's what we're good at.
Actually, I have a prime example that includes only humans. Back when I was taking a native american course in college, we had to read a few books/journals for class. One was talking about a conflict with some of the settlers and natives where a small group agreed to exchange sons and teach the other sons the best education possible so that each group could understand the other better. When they changed back, the settlers were unhappy because their sons were "savages." But it was the natives who were really torqued, with the argument that their sons had their heads full of ideas and worldly information, but were unable to hunt, fish, make shelter, know which plants were medicine and which were poison, etc, and were incapable of surviving outside of the white man's world. Neither appreciated the other culture's priorities.
So, just because we appreciate our traits and art doesn't mean our knowledge is useful to others. We don't appreciate instinct because we have little to none of it. Animals may very well think that we are wasting our time and we don't even know it.
And just to mention it for giggles, I know a whole lot of ignorant humans when it comes to art and music. or compassion, tolerance, and honor for that matter
I have no real point, other than to say that I appreciate and respect animals (to varying degrees, admittedly) for what they are: well adapted to their particular niches, and important to the global ecosystem. I love many of them as pets, and enjoy the connections I have. I do eat meat. I've always admired the Native American view of animals, which is pretty similar. I find nothing at all distasteful about being a member of the ape family. Let's face it: humans have habits that are as disgusting as those of any animal we care to name.
Animals are just way, way awesome, in my opinion. I often find myself thinking that I wish God had quit when He finished creating the rest of the animal kingdom. One other thought: When the Bible says we as humans are to have dominion over the animals, I think what it's really doing is giving us a charge to be their guardians. Just as parents have dominion over their children, this comes with a great responsibility and those who abuse that responsibility because of some perceived right they associate with the word "dominion," will be held accountable for their behavior.
doeable, you're just too darned humano-ego-centric for my taste! Even with ketchup drizzled all over you!
The songs of whales and dolphins, the tweets" of various birds, like penguins under water, or of song-birds in the spring. elephants communicating over huge distances with sub-sonic sound waves (to our ears at any rate).
You assume , since you're not privy to how artistically or poetically it might be being said, that it's therefore inarticulate and without spirituality. At odds with your idea is that apparently whales and dolphins and elephants can easily identify specific individuals at immense ranges. Could it possibly be the manner of their voices? Inflections? Artistic components? Poetry?
Not to your mind. Well... that's just typical illiterate human arrogance.
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