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That depends. I'm not going to keep slaves etc. even if god's existence is proven. The problem with saying that without god everything is permissable, is that it assumes that if someone holds no belief in god then they devolve into hedonism and sociopathic behavior. It follows that if the individual claiming this were to lose their belief in god, then they would also lose their sense of right and wrong.
I agree that people don't necessarily swing to the extreme of murder, but what do you think about grey areas? I mean what are your views on the morality of plural marriages, pornography, prostitution, etc...? once again, not trying to be smarmy or rhetorical, I'm truly seeking better understanding of another's viewpoint.
and if the existence of God was conclusively proven, would you follow His law?
Which god are you referring to? What constitutes "proof"? How do we know what it's laws/commands are?
Are you referring to the god(s) from the Bible? Are the laws you're referring to, the laws/commands written in the Bible?
Is the Bible the infallible word of god? If so, then this god commands mass slaughter, mass murder of babies, enslaving other people, pillaging, kidnap and rape. There is no denying that these commands are written in the Bible as coming from god to his "chosen" people, unless you are being intellectually dishonest. Why would anyone want to follow such an immoral god? Why would any "supreme being" command such things?
If the Bible is NOT the infallible word of god, then which parts does one follow and which parts does one NOT follow? Who gets to interpret it and decide which parts are from god and which parts were just made up by men as they went along? How do we know if any of it is from a god and not just from men wanting to impose their own ideas on others and claiming authority from some god they created in their own image?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson
So, if He created all things and is the supreme authority, that still doesn't give Him the right to determine what will fly in His universe? You would still assert that you are better able to determine what is good for you, than God?
If this god commanded us to mass murder men, women and children, slaughter innocent babies, enslave other people, pillage other towns, kidnap and rape young virgin girls for the pleasure of men, and give this god his share of the "booty" as is written in the Bible... I'd tell this god to take a hike to the furthest galaxy and slit my own throat rather than follow it's commands.
So yes, if you are referring to the god(s) of the Bible, I am far more moral, and far more able to determine what is good not only for me, but humanity in general, by just sticking to some simple basic values like "do no harm" and "treat others as you would have them treat you" (this did not originate from the Israelite/Christian gods of the Bible)
OR...Are referring to some other god? And not the immoral, capricious, jealous, petty, murdering, war-mongering, misogynistic monster described in the OT? If so, then what's your source of information about this god and "His" laws.
Btw, is your god a male? Why? If he's male he must have dangly bits? What for?
I agree that people don't necessarily swing to the extreme of murder, but what do you think about grey areas? I mean what are your views on the morality of plural marriages, pornography, prostitution, etc...? once again, not trying to be smarmy or rhetorical, I'm truly seeking better understanding of another's viewpoint.
I think the morality of grey areas tends to be subjective. For example, liberal religious sects tend to not find it as big a deal as a conservative religious sect.
I agree that people don't necessarily swing to the extreme of murder, but what do you think about grey areas? I mean what are your views on the morality of plural marriages, pornography, prostitution, etc...? once again, not trying to be smarmy or rhetorical, I'm truly seeking better understanding of another's viewpoint.
why is plural marriage thrown in with pornorgraphy and prostitution?
Well, to be brutally honest, I would have to fall in line with the views of Nietzsche, Sartre and Russell. If there is no God, life is just one giant metaphorical game of "King of the Mountain." The only rule is that there are no rules and whatever it takes to further my own wealth and power would become the primary goal of my existence. If we're to be honest, it's the only logical alternative.
Sounds like a good description of many men throughout history who claimed to know some god's will and tried to impose it on others.
So are you seriously saying you would be an egocentric, self-serving, power-hungry, sociopath if you didn't believe in your god? Wow.
Best you keep believing then, for the sake of everyone around you.
I think the morality of grey areas tends to be subjective. For example, liberal religious sects tend to not find it as big a deal as a conservative religious sect.
I'm a bit curious as to why I got a response about how various religions might view it. I was really wanting to know what your views were on these topics, coming from a completely non-religious viewpoint.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabfest
why is plural marriage thrown in with pornorgraphy and prostitution?
They were just 3 things that I knew are morally controversial. Meaning I know some social circles are fine with it and others are not.
If so, then this god commands mass slaughter, mass murder of babies, enslaving other people, pillaging, kidnap and rape. There is no denying that these commands are written in the Bible as coming from god to his "chosen" people, unless you are being intellectually dishonest. Why would anyone want to follow such an immoral god? Why would any "supreme being" command such things?
Yet this same God, died on a cross thousands of years later, so you could/I could have eternal life. I am not going to lie to you and say I understand the reasons behind all the OT atrocities, but I do understand what happened at Calvary's cross. I feel that I am of rationale mind and reasonably intelligent, and I know that there are times when terrible things have to be done. The bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed hundreds of thousands, yet had they not been dropped far more would have probably died. Any clear reading of the Bible would make it very obvious that by the time Christ was born, God was no longer commanding His people to do such things. I know you don't believe He exists, yet still you want to judge an eternal all knowing God, based on your limited knowledge of the facts, 3000 years later. I am not saying you have to agree with me on the existence of God, but if you are going to look at Biblical accounts of things, isn't it fair to look at them within their context? I mean, if the Bible is true, than God does exist and he is Benevolent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient. Right? If the Bible is complete fiction and there is no God then He never told anyone to do anything. So, isn't it fair that if you are going to look at the Bible/God hypothetically, that you would then need to take into account His Benevolence, Omnipotence, and Omniscience? Doesn't a being who embodies all 3 of those characteristics deserve, the benefit of the doubt?
What I seek here is better understanding. Just because we don't agree with each other, doesn't mean we can't learn to understand one another. I genuinely hope that I am not offending anyone here with my posts.
So, if He created all things and is the supreme authority, that still doesn't give Him the right to determine what will fly in His universe? You would still assert that you are better able to determine what is good for you, than God?
Why did it give us the ability to reason about moral issues if are supposed to ignore that ability and blindly follow what some old white guys in funny hats tell us to do? Obviously, what it wanted to "fly" was for us to use our brains to figure out how best to handle morally questionable situations.
Yet this same God, died on a cross thousands of years later, so you could/I could have eternal life.
But WHY would any benevolent, omnipotent god think of doing such a horrible, pointless thing? To me, it's just a continuation of the whole "scapegoat" ritual of men shifting the "wrongdoings" from themselves onto animals, and then sacrificing them so the gods would not be angry with them and do something like cause a volcano to erupt. I realise you've probably been brought up on this idea and it seems perfectly natural to you. But to me, it's a really sick idea. I certainly wouldn't want eternal life on those terms, (I'm not sure what the attraction to eternal life is anyway) and don't understand why any decent human being would think this was actually okay?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson
I am not going to lie to you and say I understand the reasons behind all the OT atrocities, but I do understand what happened at Calvary's cross. I feel that I am of rationale mind and reasonably intelligent, and I know that there are times when terrible things have to be done. The bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed hundreds of thousands, yet had they not been dropped far more would have probably died.
I can see the rationale behind that because the Japanese may never have surrendered and may have prolonged the war for years. But what possible rationale could your god have for ordering men to kidnap and rape young girls after they have slaughtered all their families?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson
Any clear reading of the Bible would make it very obvious that by the time Christ was born, God was no longer commanding His people to do such things.
So he decided to stop ordering his people to do atrocious things? How does this mesh with a Benevolent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient god? Not at all, in my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson
I know you don't believe He exists, yet still you want to judge an eternal all knowing God, based on your limited knowledge of the facts, 3000 years later. I am not saying you have to agree with me on the existence of God, but if you are going to look at Biblical accounts of things, isn't it fair to look at them within their context?
So in what context would you like me to look at those commands to slaughter, murder, pillage, enslave and rape?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson
I mean, if the Bible is true, than God does exist and he is Benevolent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient. Right?
Well..No, in my opinion. If the Bible was "true", the god it describes is far from Benevolent, Omnipotent and Omniscient. Incompetant, Blinkered and Malevolent perhaps. (hmm sounds like human qualities-like those of the men who created this god in their OWN image perhaps?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson
If the Bible is complete fiction and there is no God then He never told anyone to do anything.
Not necessarily, it just means the particular god of the Bible never existed and that he was created by men in their own image. Which if you read the Bible in the context of the history and culture of the times in which it was written, makes FAR more sense. Do you believe that every man that ever claimed god told him do do something was telling the truth? Especially if the actions hurt other people but was to the man's own benefit. How do you know these men in the Bible were not just lying about "commands from God" just so they could get others to follow them in doing something horrible like slaughtering other tribes and raping and pillaging? Doesn't it make more sense that men made up these "commands from the Lord" so they could claim that they were "god-sanctioned and righteous", rather than the idea of a benevolent god ordering them to commit atrocities?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson
So, isn't it fair that if you are going to look at the Bible/God hypothetically, that you would then need to take into account His Benevolence, Omnipotence, and Omniscience? Doesn't a being who embodies all 3 of those characteristics deserve, the benefit of the doubt?
Sorry, but I see no evidence of Benevolence, Omnipotence and Omniscience in the god described in the Bible, so why would it be only "fair" to take this those characteristics into account? On what do you base those claims?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson
What I seek here is better understanding. Just because we don't agree with each other, doesn't mean we can't learn to understand one another. I genuinely hope that I am not offending anyone here with my posts.
I appreciate and thank you for the tone and approach of your posts. You are very courteous and I'm certainly willing to listen to your rationale on why you believe in your god and the Bible. But I'll also challenge to you to really stop and think about what you are saying.
Because of everything I've researched over the years, to me it seems rather obvious that the god of the Bible was created by the men of the time in which the texts were written, and reflects their culture and the philosophical/religious thinking of their times. No doubt some of them actually believed what they were writing. I'm certainly curious about why so few Christians I've come across have looked into the history of their religion, the history of the Bible and the cultures in which it was written.
But just because I don't believe in the god of the Bible, does not necessarily mean I dismiss outright the idea of some higher power, just not the god of the Bible.
Last edited by Ceist; 04-05-2010 at 07:49 AM..
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Wow. 
