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If it is true that God is love, how do we explain the doctrine of eternal torment, and/or separation from God?
If the Bible is true, when it says that God is love, does he only love us on this side of the grave? Would we only love our children on this side of the grave, even if they have strayed?
He commands us to "forgive seventy times seven", which, from what I can gather, means endlessly. Will he demand that we do what he will not?
If you believe in the doctrine of never-ending punishment, can you admit that there will come a time when God can no longer love?
We are told it is free choice, then we are told that we are helpless. If that is the case, how does a helpless person help himself? Romans 3:11 says that no one is seeking out God. So, now what? Some are lucky enough, or smart enough to figure it out, somehow, in time, but too bad for everyone else?
You say that hell is a choice, (and yes, I was taught the same), yet Christians describe God as a heavenly father. What sort of father would abandon a child just because that child threw a tantrum, and said that he didn't want, and didn't love his father? Yes, the father may allow a certain distance, but if the child ran into the street, during the tantrum, would that father continue to allow that child to have his "choice" or "free will"? I seriously doubt it, and if he did, he surely wouldn't be considered much of a father, by anyone's standards.
God will still love eternally. In reference to "If the Bible is true, when it says that God is love, does he only love us on this side of the grave? Would we only love our children on this side of the grave, even if they have strayed?," : Say 2 of my children (I have 4) were killed in an auto accident. One of my children was a wonderful, Bible believing person...active in church, just over all a GREAT person. My other child was addicted to drugs, had a long criminal record and hadn't kept in touch with me over the years. If they were BOTH killed in the accident...DESPITE the choices they made in their lives, I loved them both VERY VERY much and would greatly MOURN their death...BOTH OF THEM! I would be tearful and heart broken for BOTH of them...Although I greatly LOVE, will miss and deeply mourn for them both, I may actually mourn a bit more for the one that was NOT a Christian (living the Christian lifestyle), simply because I would be greatly saddened by the fact that he/she was not going to be in Heaven. My other child, however, I will be comforted by the fact that he/she WILL be in Heaven!
I hope I made this make sense!
God loves us all and will ALWAYS love us no matter what! It greatly saddens God to see that one of His children not following and obeying Him. We are ALL God's creation...we were created IN HIS IMAGE! Believe me, He loves us ALL! And He will mourn for those that do not make it into His Kingdom!
"Being saved" is a creation of man. In my opinion it is absolute rubbish and it is only intended to make people feel better about themselves and to show others solidarity. Also to gain acceptance in their circle of either friends, communities and the like.
If this were TRULY the case and being saved was "rubbish" and "creation of man" and was intended only to "make people feel better about themselves..."what would be wrong with that? Would there actually be something wrong with feeling good about yourself? Or are we meant to be depressed and sad and angry all of the time? So you sin, you're guilty and your depressed because of your sinful nature. You can either dwell on your guilt OR you can seek Jesus and His Kingdom and have peace and comfort through Him? And the problem would be????????????
Just curious!
God will still love eternally. In reference to "If the Bible is true, when it says that God is love, does he only love us on this side of the grave? Would we only love our children on this side of the grave, even if they have strayed?," : Say 2 of my children (I have 4) were killed in an auto accident. One of my children was a wonderful, Bible believing person...active in church, just over all a GREAT person. My other child was addicted to drugs, had a long criminal record and hadn't kept in touch with me over the years. If they were BOTH killed in the accident...DESPITE the choices they made in their lives, I loved them both VERY VERY much and would greatly MOURN their death...BOTH OF THEM! I would be tearful and heart broken for BOTH of them...Although I greatly LOVE, will miss and deeply mourn for them both, I may actually mourn a bit more for the one that was NOT a Christian (living the Christian lifestyle), simply because I would be greatly saddened by the fact that he/she was not going to be in Heaven. My other child, however, I will be comforted by the fact that he/she WILL be in Heaven!
I hope I made this make sense!
God loves us all and will ALWAYS love us no matter what! It greatly saddens God to see that one of His children not following and obeying Him. We are ALL God's creation...we were created IN HIS IMAGE! Believe me, He loves us ALL! And He will mourn for those that do not make it into His Kingdom!
But, how can one say that one would mourn for the child that was not going to be in heaven, but would be comforted that the other child would? It's great that one child will be there, but how does this bring comfort if one believes that the other child is in hell? And, what if the other child was not a "bad" child? No drugs, no wild parties, no premarital sex, no criminal record... Would it make it easier, if the child was bad, if we thought he was in hell? And, this does not answer my question about the father who would allow his temper-tantrum throwing child to go into the street, because he is allowing the child "free will". I guess the father would be heartily sorry and grief-stricken, but after all, it was the kid's choice.
And, if heaven is a place of no sorrow, no mourning, etc., how is that God will be mourning for his lost creation, (most of it, by the way, will be lost, according to traditional Christian belief. I don't mean to be facetious, but that's not exactly a great track record)? Will there come a time, when He no longer mourns? Is that when the love stops? And, what about all, or I should say, the few, Christians who made it? Will they be in mourning? And, if not, why not? Will God take away their memory of their loved ones? I've heard that explaination before, but that doesn't quite cut it for me. If one's memory is gone, how then are we the same people? And, there is the other explanation, which tells us that Christians will understand in eternity. Huh? Does that mean that Christians will think similar to God, and will understand, and be okay with, the fact that most people, including loved ones and friends, are in hell, eternally?!
Please understand, I'm not trying to pick at you, personally, or to be ugly about this, but honestly, this is the main reason why I stopped going to church. Too many unanswered questions; at least not satisfactory answers. I just can't sit in the pew, knowing that I cannot believe in the concept of an "eternal" hell. I was raised to believe in it; I know most, if not all the arguments in favor of it, but it just does not make sense to me. As I said in one posting, (can't remember if it was here, or another thread), most of us can't walk and chew gum at the same time. And yet, we believe that God will leave the most important decision in our own hands. If this brings you comfort, then I'm happy for you that you can be so resolute in your belief, and I really do mean that. But, I just have too many questions to be satisfied with my previous beliefs. I sometimes wish I didn't have these questions, and that I could so easily accept the answers that so many Christians seem to accept. But, that doesn't seem to be happening for me.
But, how can one say that one would mourn for the child that was not going to be in heaven, but would be comforted that the other child would? It's great that one child will be there, but how does this bring comfort if one believes that the other child is in hell? And, what if the other child was not a "bad" child? No drugs, no wild parties, no premarital sex, no criminal record... Would it make it easier, if the child was bad, if we thought he was in hell? And, this does not answer my question about the father who would allow his temper-tantrum throwing child to go into the street, because he is allowing the child "free will". I guess the father would be heartily sorry and grief-stricken, but after all, it was the kid's choice.
And, if heaven is a place of no sorrow, no mourning, etc., how is that God will be mourning for his lost creation, (most of it, by the way, will be lost, according to traditional Christian belief. I don't mean to be facetious, but that's not exactly a great track record)? Will there come a time, when He no longer mourns? Is that when the love stops? And, what about all, or I should say, the few, Christians who made it? Will they be in mourning? And, if not, why not? Will God take away their memory of their loved ones? I've heard that explaination before, but that doesn't quite cut it for me. If one's memory is gone, how then are we the same people? And, there is the other explanation, which tells us that Christians will understand in eternity. Huh? Does that mean that Christians will think similar to God, and will understand, and be okay with, the fact that most people, including loved ones and friends, are in hell, eternally?!
Please understand, I'm not trying to pick at you, personally, or to be ugly about this, but honestly, this is the main reason why I stopped going to church. Too many unanswered questions; at least not satisfactory answers. I just can't sit in the pew, knowing that I cannot believe in the concept of an "eternal" hell. I was raised to believe in it; I know most, if not all the arguments in favor of it, but it just does not make sense to me. As I said in one posting, (can't remember if it was here, or another thread), most of us can't walk and chew gum at the same time. And yet, we believe that God will leave the most important decision in our own hands. If this brings you comfort, then I'm happy for you that you can be so resolute in your belief, and I really do mean that. But, I just have too many questions to be satisfied with my previous beliefs. I sometimes wish I didn't have these questions, and that I could so easily accept the answers that so many Christians seem to accept. But, that doesn't seem to be happening for me.
I can understand all of your questions...believe me, I understand more than you will ever know! There will be no sorrow in Heaven. I understand what you are saying and there really isn't going to be a concrete answer for you. But that is why it is important to Christians to "spread the news". No Christian wants to see anyone go to hell. Especially our family members. That is why it is important to us that we bring our children up to love and repect God. That's why it is important and we feel such a burden to tell our family members and everyone else that we love what Jesus has done for us.
Everyone is going to have their own interpretations of things. But it is important to have the basic facts correct according to the Bible.
It saddens me that so many people choose not to believe in the Bible...it isn't as though there is anything tragically AWFUL in there. It is God's Word. But I can understand WHY people choose not to believe in it. I wasn't always a Christian either. I used to question it and had the same philosophical differences about it as you and so many others. But if you have ever knows any true Christians, you will have noticed the love and the peace that permeates and radiates from them. Is this a bad thing? I don't care who you talk to...I genuinely believe that just about every Christian out there that has read the Bible at all has some kind of unanswered question as well. However, they choose to believe anyway because of the evidence of Jesus and the love He has shown for us. So even though you have questions that trouble and burden you, that really shouldn't hold you back from being a Christian. There are just some things that cannot simply be explained...that's where faith comes in and/or you'll have to wait to get to Heaven then you can ask God yourself
Seriously...It sounds like you believe in God and Jesus and what He did...you just question some things which is completely NORMAL and HUMAN! I would be more worried about you if you DIDN'T have questions. But don't let your questions overrun you so much that you choose NOT to follow God. I believe that the more you read the Bible and the closer you get to God, the more comfortable you will be in your beliefs and God!
And BTW, no worries...there are only a couple of people on here that can get under my skin (and the biggest one is another so called believer <won't mention names>) and YOU ARE NOT one of those people! Feel free to ask and debate. I may not always have the answers, but I will do my best to at least respond the best I can (even with no answer lol) and will do my best to NOT be judgmental or critical. I have seen enough of this to do my best to learn what NOT TO DO!
Location: Comunistafornia, and working to get out ASAP!
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What about Children who are not "saved"
What about children who are not saved? What about adults not saved? Same thing. Salvation is a gift from God; there is nothing we can do to earn it. He gives it to us. He declares that He choose us before the foundation of the world.
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." (Ephesians 1:4-6)
And
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Romans 8:29,30)
There is a myth that there is an "age of accountability" but that is nowhere found in the Scriptures. Children are saved just as we responding to God's call and repentance and confession.
Since you believe that God punishes "eternally" very few, is it possible that you believe in universalism? Basically, the belief that Jesus will save all, eventually? There are some differences in the universalist camp. Some of them believe that most people will be saved, (as opposed to traditional Christianity, that preaches that very few will be saved), other than possibly the most heinous, including Satan. Others believe that even those most evil of sinners, including Satan, will be saved, in God's own time. Christian universalists do not believe that there are other ways to God. They believe that Jesus is the only way, but they don't believe that death is the dividing line. I was just curious, as I have read and studied some about universalism.
I'm not familiar with the term universalism. Thankyou for explaining to me.
I do not belive Jesus will save ALL. I do not believe in a hell as in the traditional sense either so yes I do belive that most everyone; excluding the really really bad dudes will receive a type of glory if not the highest which is to dwell with God.
And, what about all, or I should say, the few, Christians who made it? Will they be in mourning? And, if not, why not? Will God take away their memory of their loved ones? I've heard that explaination before, but that doesn't quite cut it for me. If one's memory is gone, how then are we the same people? And, there is the other explanation, which tells us that Christians will understand in eternity. Huh? Does that mean that Christians will think similar to God, and will understand, and be okay with, the fact that most people, including loved ones and friends, are in hell, eternally?!
I wondered about that too, how can Heaven been joyful if all our friends and family won't be there. There is a verse in Psalms I don't know right now where it is but I'll look it up later,it says the memory of these people will be gone from us. I do think we understand things when we get to Heaven and it will a joyful, happy place, to be in the presence of Jesus forever with no pain, no sorrow, just to sit at His feet and be with Him, how wonderful!
If this were TRULY the case and being saved was "rubbish" and "creation of man" and was intended only to "make people feel better about themselves..."what would be wrong with that? Would there actually be something wrong with feeling good about yourself? Or are we meant to be depressed and sad and angry all of the time? So you sin, you're guilty and your depressed because of your sinful nature. You can either dwell on your guilt OR you can seek Jesus and His Kingdom and have peace and comfort through Him? And the problem would be????????????
Just curious!
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I do not disrespect what people believe in, I am merely stating that I do not believe in "being saved." I don't know where "depressed" or "angry" came into this equation, but it is off the subject. And what sinful nature?? I do not understand. You and I simply do not agree; therefore we will agree to disagree. :-)
children under the age that they can discern and understand the teachings are free of condemnation for they do not know it. But there is an age of accountability when they can hear and understand the saving message, what sin is and accept the Love and salvation of Jesus.
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And yet, we believe that God will leave the most important decision in our own hands. If this brings you comfort, then I'm happy for you that you can be so resolute in your belief, and I really do mean that. But, I just have too many questions to be satisfied with my previous beliefs. I sometimes wish I didn't have these questions, and that I could so easily accept the answers that so many Christians seem to accept. But, that doesn't seem to be happening for me.
What guilt??
ok? How twisted!!!
