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What constitutes a cult? Some define it by the following. Based on my experience, I would have to check all of the below in describing MasterPath.
1. Authoritarian in its power structure
2. Leaders tend to be charismatic, determined, and domineering
3. Leaders are self-appointed, messianic persons who claim to have a special mission in life
4. Tends to be totalitarian in control of the behavior of members
5. Tends to have a double set of standards
6. Has a purpose of actively recruiting new members and fund raising
7. Presents itself as innovative and exclusive
8. The leaders center the veneration of members upon themselves.
Of course the designation of something as a cult is a very slippery and squishy thing. There are no defined rules and even the best anti-cult guys only provide check-lists as guidance, not definitive, but as a tool used by an experienced person to make an assesment.
The following is a post by an MP Chela friend of mind on a another discussion board, he's 9 years into it and I thought it offered another perspective. His answers are 100% true to my 3 years of study so far. and there are half a dozen other MP students ranging from 2-5 years that agree with the answers.
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Questions I would probably ask about a path to see if it was cult-like (with my answers coming from my experience as a chela of 9 years on MasterPath):
Does the teacher claim his path is the only valid one, or that he is the only qualified teacher?
No. Everyone is considered to be on the path appropriate to them- even if it is no path, or a phase of "seeking". Gary Olsen has also claimed there are several other competent teachers on the planet capable of delivering students back to Self and God realization.
Does the teacher claim to be better than his students?
No. He is made of the same stuff as anyone else, and only claims to have a special ability and duty to deliver sincere and readied souls back to God.
This would be akin to a math teacher having a special ability and duty to deliver readied and sincere students to the "Calculus-realized state" .
Are students encouraged to idealize the personality of the teacher?
No. Idealization of Gary Olsen's personality (manner of speech, dress, fitness level, personal habits, etc.) is discouraged. What is individual to him need not be idealized, what is universal ought to be (among students). Students are encouraged to be themselves, and the individual expression of soul is greatly valued by this path.
Does the teacher use followers for sexual gratification?
No. Never heard a whiff of this. As far as I know, he's only married once (prior to starting MasterPath), stayed married, and has no kids.
Does the teacher personally abuse or demean any students or staff?
No. At a recent seminar I heard about how the staff for the seminar were discouraged from becoming too fixated on getting every little detail "right"- that they should feel free to maintain their inner spiritual focus, on their own inner spiritual essence, even then.
Does the teacher use the group for undue personal financial gain?
No. There are modest dues- $30 per month. People unwilling to pay the full amount can request paying less or nothing at all. Gary Olsen appears to draw a modest salary (this information is probably in a public filing somewhere), enough for a cheap house ($600 a month in rent), car (Honda Civic, last I saw), and clothing (many of his students dress better than he does, frankly), and no more. I've only heard one specific request for funds during a seminar- but there was no passing of the hat, or anything like that.
Does the path try to brainwash children into becoming devotees?
No. Parents are discouraged from foisting MasterPath on their children. Children under 14 are in fact prohibited from joining, and up to age 18 must have a parents' or guardians' signature in order to join.
Does the path put people in any stressful situations?
No. The only activities of any kind are lectures, and people are encouraged to leave at any time if they feel uncomfortable.
Does the path break any governmental laws?
No. Taxes are paid, forms filed, etc. I've never heard of any governmental sanctions against MasterPath. It is incorporated as a nonprofit.
Are students encouraged to shun people who leave the path?
No. I and many other chelas I know have remained friends with people who have left MasterPath- though, frankly, few I know of have ever left.
Are students encouraged to socialize mainly within the group?
No. Outside of seminars, there are no gatherings for students to socialize. It is not designed to be a path which provides social or worldy support to its devotees.
Are students encouraged to convert new students, by any means necessary?
No. Students are encouraged to be available for one-on-oneing and the like, but no more than that. The role is essentially passive- the interest and direction to the interest should come from the seeker, flowing through to them from the spiritual power within the student, not from the student's personality.
Now, some students will sometimes be overzealous (including on this board), but they have certainly been discouraged from doing that. Students are also discouraged from even posting flyers, when there is an event, in any incongruent posting places (which would be most places). Students are also discouraged from using the "Shabda" to attract mates, win jobs, impress people, etc.
Are students' private lives dictated or monitored heavily?
No. I doubt there is any particular private behavior which, by itself, could get anyone kicked off the path, or sanctioned in any way. Students are not asked to share intimate personal details of their lives with anyone in MasterPath. MasterPath simply does not have a strong moral code, and in fact morality is considered dualistic and limited.
Is the path a ripoff on another path?
No. [Name deleted] claimed MasterPath is a ripoff of Eckankar, but anyone familiar with Light and Sound paths would see that MasterPath has far more in common with other L&S paths like Sant Mat. The basic doctrine is almost exactly the same, across all L&S paths; either you could conclude they are all ripoffs of some more ancient path, or it's simply the basic doctrine of Light and Sound paths.
Realistically, the L&S paths attempt to represent, in an overview form, the nature of reality. Ideally, doctrines are a ripoff on reality. MasterPath does not claim that the bulk of its doctrine is unique or special relative to other paths- though there are a few tweaks that are considered to make MP more relevant for modern, Western devotees.
Does the path practice nepotism- special privileges or rights for family members or close associates?
No. I've never heard of special advantages for office workers, either- not even better seating.
Is investigation or open-mindedness discouraged?
No. In fact, particularly at the beginning, investigation, experimentation, questioning, and testing are all encouraged. Students are not considered to have really made a commitment to a path, until their 2nd initiation, which as I recall requires being a member for at least 1 year.
Are people given a new identity upon joining the path?
No. No new names, no special marks, clothing, etc.
Are students encouraged to lie about the path, or give it a false image?
No, never. It may not be appropriate to say some things to some people- if it would disturb them or if they had a malignant intent- but there's never any reason to try to make the path look better than it is. It stands on its own.
Are students encouraged to wear their membership in the path on their sleeves?
No. Not that it should be hidden, either, but it's not something to be flaunted. We have no crosses, special symbols, in-group signs, etc.
Are students told to think poorly of people outside the group?
No. Everyone is considered to be a part of God, inevitably to return to God, and all are at an appropriate stage in its journey, right where it should be. And nothing is considered unclean of itself.
Are students ever blackmailed about their personal lives?
No.
Are there any metaphysical threats- of hell, dire consequences for leaving, etc.?
No. There is no eternal damnation in the doctrine, or threats of metaphysical curses for leaving, etc.
Does the path promise worldly benefits to followers, or special psychic powers?
No.
Does the path promise worldly miracles in response to prayer, donations, etc.?
No.
Does the path have complex rites, rules, or rituals?
No.
Some questions to which the answer is yes (which I obviously don't consider inherent features of a cult, but which may arouse initial suspicions if one is thinking in associative terms)-
Is the path smaller than the mainstream religions?
Yes. I'm going to guess 10,000 students, but I don't know- or greatly care, for that matter.
Is the path younger than the mainstream religions?
Yes. MasterPath was founded in 1987 or thereabouts. But it purports that its doctrine is ancient- "old win in a new bottle", etc.
Does the path have a strong, living leader?
Yes. Gary Olsen's capacity is completely central to the credibility of MasterPath, and the teacher on any other Light and Sound path is considered fundamental to its value. Otherwise, it would just be another dead mystics' school.
Does the path feel it offers something special?
Yes- for some people. For most, some other path will be more appropriate for them.
Does the path claim to have a way back to God?
Yes.
I hope this clears up some of the confusion or ignorance some readers may have about MasterPath.
I think it could be reasonably concluded that the term "cultish" would be more accurately applied to almost any other social group, spiritual or secular, than to MasterPath. Take a typical high school football team- it has a strong leader (the coach), requires great personal sacrifice (hard practices), often regulates other aspects of the participants' lives (gotta keep your grades up, maybe you have to dress up for the big game), plays are ripped off from other teams, teams strive to be special and superior to others "We're number 1! etc.", players are given new identities upon joining (tailback, etc.), typically there's a lot of personality worship of the star players, it's a small group, individual initiative is discouraged, worldly benefits are promised, children play the game, are put in stressful situations, are often demeaned, and the participants wear their membership on their sleeves. And for some people, it is their God, perhaps purposefully so .
Certainly, I don't mean to demean high school football; it's simply representative of a lot of organized activities people partake in. MasterPath's lack of resemblance to other paths, in these "cult-like" questions I posted at the top, is a major reason I was attracted to it in the first place (having experienced paths that really are cultish, prior to that). Some information about MasterPath on other websites isn't accurate in the slightest.
Wow - who pays you for the unaccredited legal advice?
Well my company is a major defense contractor. Basically I have delegation of authority from legal for matters relating to Intellectual Property law and software, in particular the direction/policy etc for open source software. Another term used is Subject Matter Expert.
Its a position I just kinda developed into, given years in software development, a stint as CTO for some Fortune 50s, involvement in mergers/acquisitions exposed me to IP stuff, as well as managing patent portfolios.
It's a cool job, I couldn't have created it on purpose if I had tried. Its also appears to be a emerging specialist field. I am now seeing other companies assign Open Source Officer or such silly titles to people.
Thanks for asking.
Last edited by allan1015; 03-02-2009 at 10:13 AM..
Well, here’s a glimpse into Masterpath and Gary Olsen for your reading enjoyment. ☺
May 2006: Gary Olsen holds a seminar in which he instructs his students that he has a most serious issue to discuss with them, and they need to attend his Sunday morning meeting awake, prepared, and focused. The topic: His prediction of the impending Bird Flu pandemic. His ‘ill-conceived’ prediction: that the Avian Flu would mutate, become airborne, and sweep across the US within 3 months to 1 year from the date of his talk.
Yeah I was just getting into this then, but heard form other Chela's about this. I didn't know there was a tape of it? Do you know the name etc?
Personally I just find this a quirk of the Man Gary Olsen. Same as I find it quirky how he talks, like makes of words - concentralize or some silly stuff. The man is apparently not overly educated mid westerner and I cringe when I hear him start overlapping into physics and science and stuff.
But I find I look past all that stuff. Not in any way because I idealize the man, but simply because I don't hold gurus/teachers of any ilk up to standards of perfection. I don't expect them to be perfect, I expect mistakes I guess. I think the human tendency to expect our gurus to be perfect is a projection we put on to them.
As to the bird flu advice, well I believe all of that preparatory stuff is a good thing, and may save life's in the next few years. I am a bit of a 2012 er, not so much the alien stuff, but a major cusp point. For reasons I wont get into I have access and friendships with some world recognized futurist, and to a man they all see much more bad times coming, perhaps as early as June this year some major collapse in financial markets.
Last edited by allan1015; 03-02-2009 at 10:13 AM..
I just wanted to add to the last part, none of the MP Students/Chela's I had spoken to about this had the impression, or at least didn't discuss it as immediate, or an emergency as you describe.
Which doesn't mean I don't believe that some chelas did take it that way. Apparently Chelas are like people, they come in all shapes and sizes, some are goo-goo eyed, others are not. Everyones path/journey seems to be very individualized and whats even cooler is that I sense not one iota of attempt to make people conform, and in fact the individual paths and opinion are encouraged
Oh and after all your time, what 10-20 years following MP, is this the only example of Sri Gary being stupid and his students being blinded fools that you can come up with? To be honest, just as a sample set I'd consider that a pretty good track record. It was odd but didn't stop me from going forward in my investigation.
Gary Olsen wants you to believe that the truth is in him. ... He preached self-inquiry but wanted to be the one who told you where you were at in consciousness.
So far that is not aligned with my experience. I just listen to a satsang recently where the answer to the question 'Where am I - in terms of consciousness development' was two fold
1- Asses your ability of Conscious control of the things in your life, for example over the things like anger. How much do these thing control you or you control them.
2- Ask, ask internally, ask the inner master, listen and watch for an answer.
The idea of asking Gary the man was directly and specifically said no - don't send me letters, etc.
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MasterPath is built on a system of hierarchy. Higher initiates tattle on lower initiates. There is a dynamic of pecking order that is undeniable.
Again, not my experience at all. Its a gross generalization. There might well be Chelas that report or tattle on lower ones. I've never seen it or talked to anyone that has experienced it. I have direct contact with several long terms chelas, and some have direct experience with like 15 year long chelas. This outside of any ones experience.
I know this because I had experiences with one Chela on a purity kicks that where he was questioning my devotion, my sincerity, etc. This was his thing alone. We, many of us, had long discussion about it and we tapped into other chelas opinions. In fact I at one time was going to alert him because I considered his judgments harmful to young chelas and directly against the teachings, which they clearly are.
Thats all said my point is I will not doubt you experienced what you say. However I will directly challenge thats as a accurate generalized summary of MP, that such behavior is encouraged from home office, etc.
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And the group is powerful.
I find this to be so opposite from truth it hurts. From all I can tell there is no 'Group' of people at MP. It is a very very individual process, there is extremely little socialization peer pressure. I don know that there may be more group interaction in areas like Albuquerque, where MP used to be located and there is apparently a higher concentration of Chelas. But in general the group that I know and discuss with is very unique. We all knew each other before MP, but we find in all our friends and contacts that MP students are very very loosely connected. This idea of peer pressure and group think is so opposed to anything I've experienced or heard of I'd call it a lie, but that would be rude, I'm just trying to strongly say how non-group and individual I find MP.
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On MasterPath I was horribly isolated...I just didn't know it. That's the thing about a cult; it separates you from the rest of the world as though
Again, not my experience. I've a pretty active life, I'm hampered more by the fact that I work from home, make my own hours etc, then MP. Other then the normal separation you might have when you find that hanging out at bars and drinking **** faced is no longer interesting (as example), the natural tendency of any spiritual growth, raising of consciousness would have one not as interested in the old habits. MP in no way fosters separation, and again not seeing or hearing this in anyone from MP I know.
Again, MP is not one thing, I'm sure your experiences where true for you, or the chela friends you had, but to make them a generalization is, in my humble opinion a bit of a fallacy
Of course the designation of something as a cult is a very slippery and squishy thing. There are no defined rules and even the best anti-cult guys only provide check-lists as guidance, not definitive, but as a tool used by an experienced person to make an assesment.
The following is a post by an MP Chela friend of mind on a another discussion board, he's 9 years into it and I thought it offered another perspective. His answers are 100% true to my 3 years of study so far. and there are half a dozen other MP students ranging from 2-5 years that agree with the answers.
I think it could be reasonably concluded that the term "cultish" would be more accurately applied to almost any other social group, spiritual or secular, than to MasterPath. Take a typical high school football team- it has a strong leader (the coach), requires great personal sacrifice (hard practices), often regulates other aspects of the participants' lives (gotta keep your grades up, maybe you have to dress up for the big game), plays are ripped off from other teams, teams strive to be special and superior to others "We're number 1! etc.", players are given new identities upon joining (tailback, etc.), typically there's a lot of personality worship of the star players, it's a small group, individual initiative is discouraged, worldly benefits are promised, children play the game, are put in stressful situations, are often demeaned, and the participants wear their membership on their sleeves. And for some people, it is their God, perhaps purposefully so .
Certainly, I don't mean to demean high school football; it's simply representative of a lot of organized activities people partake in. MasterPath's lack of resemblance to other paths, in these "cult-like" questions I posted at the top, is a major reason I was attracted to it in the first place (having experienced paths that really are cultish, prior to that). Some information about MasterPath on other websites isn't accurate in the slightest.
Well, the other post that you quoted (the Q&A) was a pretty good logical refutation of MP as a cult.
Still, the answers to the last 3 questions are *yes* and they seem pretty important. Ultimately, you guys have a spiritual leader who collects your money (albeit a small amount), lives on it (albeit modestly) and provides a path to God. Much different than being a high school football coach.
Also, the fact that you are compelled to cite precisely how many MP students agree that it is not a cult is a bit of a sign. I'm not saying that MP is obviously a cult but this thread is evidence that people have obviously been deeply effected by it cult or not.
Anyway, I had never heard of Olsen or MP before this thread. Interesting - thanks.
Ultimately, you guys have a spiritual leader who collects your money (albeit a small amount), lives on it (albeit modestly) and provides a path to God.
The analogy about football was to talk about the high level squishiness in defining cults, or cultish activity. I'd no intent to compare Sri Gary to a football coach, leaders of organizations, etc.
But sure the organization collects money, pays staff, etc. I really am missing the point why people put that out as a negative. If you even where, its hard to tell. I know others have and it doesn't make sense to me, I'm lost as to what standard they are trying to imply for spiritual orgs.
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Also, the fact that you are compelled to cite precisely how many MP students agree that it is not a cult is a bit of a sign.
Cant tell you how exasperated that makes me feel. We can have disgruntled ex chelas, or even people with no experience at all, come on as strong as they desire, but if a supporter comes on with an energy its a 'sign' ???
From my vantage I was making a point to the ex chelas who seem to take their experience with a few people and generalize that to all chelas. In short was just trying to show them I am not alone in my experience or understandings.
But sure the organization collects money, pays staff, etc. I really am missing the point why people put that out as a negative. If you even where, its hard to tell. I know others have and it doesn't make sense to me, I'm lost as to what standard they are trying to imply for spiritual orgs.
It's more the "path to God" part that is troublesome. Sure, I could go to any kind of temple, church, meditation center or whatever and they would expect money. That's fine. But when the head of that place is an individual who himself (the individual) is an elevated personality and is receiving the bulk of the money (don't know if this is the case with Olsen although the elevated personality part is obvious) - then I see a problem. It is the combination of the factors that seems like a red flag - not just the money.
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Cant tell you how exasperated that makes me feel. We can have disgruntled ex chelas, or even people with no experience at all, come on as strong as they desire, but if a supporter comes on with an energy its a 'sign' ???
I can see why you would be exasperated. Really the "sign" is that the disgruntled ex-members are vocal in the first place. Why is that? Then when supporters try to emphatically deny the exs a web of unanswered questions is created. Have you ever followed a "debate" between a current Jehovah's Witness and an ex-JW? This thread is kinda the same thing.
I just wanted to add to the last part, none of the MP Students/Chela's I had spoken to about this had the impression, or at least didn't discuss it as immediate, or an emergency as you describe.
Which doesn't mean I don't believe that some chelas did take it that way. Apparently Chelas are like people, they come in all shapes and sizes, some are goo-goo eyed, others are not. Everyones path/journey seems to be very individualized and whats even cooler is that I sense not one iota of attempt to make people conform, and in fact the individual paths and opinion are encouraged
Oh and after all your time, what 10-20 years following MP, is this the only example of Sri Gary being stupid and his students being blinded fools that you can come up with? To be honest, just as a sample set I'd consider that a pretty good track record. It was odd but didn't stop me from going forward in my investigation.
The description I offered is an understatement of the ‘vibe’ Gary was ‘channeling.’ I didn't make it an emergency, Mr. Olsen and his advising cohorts (whoever they might have been) did.
It was a message of fear! It was a message of doom and gloom! It was a highly charged message of impending danger, imminent catastrophic death from the avian flu pandemic that would be sweeping the nation within months to a year from the date of his talk. He ended that Sunday morning talk with: Oh, I feel better now, walk in my love.
Wow, really.
And, it was more than palpable, to myself and others that Mr. Olsen was completely unaware and/or insensitive, or not attuned, or didn’t care, how that message was affecting people.
The description offered in previous post depicts his own office staff and seva personnel and how they spent their summer, whilst Mr. Olsen and secretary head off for their yearly 3 – 4 month summer retreat in Minnesota.
So, yes, you are correct, chelas do come in all sizes and levels of awareness, those closest to him are obeisant in surrendering to his guidance and direction. It's called devotion to the Master, 'master on the brain,' and other such references.
Re: the tape and title: why not ask your master. Though I seriously doubt that tape will ever be available to anyone. Wonder why?
I don’t think Gary is stupid. To the contrary, I see the real man behind the veil of photo-op humility as an ego-driven narcissist with a likeable personality that people have mistaken as God incarnate. The on-stage references of a self-deprecating persona combined with a strongly charismatic and confident personality lends itself to what he does and who he claims to be. It hooked me when I was young and naïve.
Do I think you are blind? I don’t know what you perceive. But I am acutely aware that the majority of chelas know only what they see during the stage show, and are told only what they need to know, or what the leaders want them to believe. I was once very much like you: open-minded, curious, and unafraid to experiment with a non-mainstream belief system.
The numbers your friend listed are inaccurate. The last I heard is that MP is vacillating between 1500 - 1700 members. MP lacks the universal appeal to attract 10,000 followers. And if your chela-friend doesn’t know, or much care about the number of followers, why list such an exaggerated figure.
It makes me wonder if your friend thinks that there is strength in numbers, or that the greater the number, the greater the credibility or veracity. While there are some of us who began MP when there were no numbers.
10,000 resembles the minimum number of books that have been given to, or, purchased by people who have opted NOT to pursue their spirituality as a member of the MP organization. Frankly, I now see the tens of thousands, who have passed on joining the Masterpath, as the more evolved and inwardly attuned souls. I certainly do not see them as suffering states of ‘confusion and ignorance’ regarding the Masterpath.
There’s plenty confusion and ignorance abounding within the ranks of Masterpath. Being a paying member of Masterpath is not de facto prerequisite for perceiving or experiencing truth, nor does it mean that the “chelas” are somehow the more evolved and aware souls in the world because they have ‘met the self-proclaimed master Gary.’
Re: the car Gary drives. I believe your friend is listing information from 1985-87. Much has changed in 22 + years. I suppose Gary flying to and from seminars in a privately chartered jet in order to safeguard his ‘ultra-sensitive spiritual state’ from the psychic vibes of the manumukhs in commercial airports is also a moderate expenditure of a chelas donation or money. And oh yea, it also helps to safeguard his ‘seminar state’ from all the traveling students in the airport.
Re: the membership dues. I’ve heard Gary tell students to go mow a lawn in order to pay their dues. And I do believe they have a special table at the seminars for the chelas who are on “F-hold.” Meaning ‘financial hold.’ So they can clear up their arrears before attending the meeting, or receiving initiation.
Can all that comprises the MP be rationalized, justified, and white washed as pure spirituality…I guess it depends on the individual.
How MasterPath seemingly began and what it has become are not the same. Or, maybe what MasterPath has become is what it always was, and it is only now that I can see it for what it is.
I respect your decision to pursue your spirituality on the MP. Can you handle that there are those of us who because of our experience with him directly, that we now view MasterPath as a sham, and Gary as a counterfeit.
The principle of ‘very few will see or hear the truth’ is universal, and is as applicable to those on the MP as they like to project onto those who are not.
Please understand that I do not apologize for what may be perceived as a cynical, or God forbid, blasphemous critique of MasterPath.
And last, is the bird flu the only example I have: no, but this is a blog, not a book.
Hey listen, your welcomed to your personal opinion and dissatisfaction with Gary Olsen. We all have people, events, things we see as stupid, in this life. We all have lovers and friends that we ended up despising, etc. Look its easy to see that path didn't work for you, big deal. Its also clear that you put Gary on a pedestal and he fell from your grace. I've no issue with that.
My only interest is how much is revelant to your claim that MP is a Cult, a harmful, destructive, cult with an evil, sham of a man at the helm.
As to the Bird Flu satsang, I already offered my comments, I found it a bit over the top myself, a little odd and sorta out of character for most of the hundreds of satsangs, lectures and tapes I've listened to.
So again, coming back to a cult thing - I find this proof point to be weak if not stupid as an example of a corrupted cult. One out of how many hundreds of lectures? But more importantly, I don't think a Guru (Gary in this case) has to be infallible. I think the US/Western world has a tendency to project perfection upon gurus, and that is our issue as students.
And last, is the bird flu the only example I have: no, but this is a blog, not a book.
Technically its a discussion board. Content is expected to be much more robust then a blog. I gotta say I feel all kinds of silliness and evasiveness in such a response - "I have all kinds of proof, so much proof, so much that I can't bother to tell you what it is"
And, it was more than palpable, to myself and others that Mr. Olsen was completely unaware and/or insensitive, or not attuned, or didn’t care, how that message was affecting people.
So?? Again, lets say he had a senior moment, let say he was out of touch, so? I mean sure be pissed off, find your mistakes in the Man Gary. I can surely see why you can find fault, be upset, and even use this as an excuse to leave the path, or stay away from, etc. But cults, deep seated intent to rip off, mind control, harmful intent, etc etc, - not holding up for me.
Gary the man is to a great degree a mid-western hick, street smart perhaps, but not book smart. I kinda like the mistakes to a degree, the humanness, the he's more like me then some projected idea of perfection on earth.
It's called devotion to the Master, 'master on the brain,' and other such references.
Yeah I know whats it called and its a human/chela tendency. Its what the students to, its how you made a mistake if you did this. It's is in my understanding to date, something that is taught against, specifically, it is not asked for or required by Gary.
Personally, I have a respect for the man and what he has put together. I understand the thin line any guru walks and the readiness of so many to attack. I understand how students can be the worst enemy of keeping a teaching clean, on track, etc. Disciples are a tough bunch to deal with, you can see that in every path/teacher. I think he overall has done a reasonably, good job of keeping those lines and being clean. Frankly I don't want his job, its a very tough job he has, especially in todays world.
I also have respect for his knowledge and teaching. But my devotion, that all for the internal. I am devoted to my practice, I am devoted to what I am experiencing inside, etc, all that. I walk in darshan, I shake his hand, I feel respect and some admiration, I fell his charisma, but I feel no compulsion to get on my knees, kiss feet, any of that.
And as an aside, master on the brain, I guess you mean outer master on the brain, a very different thing then inner-master at third eye kind of thing, Very different.
Re: the tape and title: why not ask your master. Though I seriously doubt that tape will ever be available to anyone. Wonder why?
Hmm now we are staring to get into that guilty without facts stuff. Lets say its not available, lets say its not because it was a screw up. Really Gary screwed up and got off on a tangent about impending hard times (they are coming by the way, 2012 and all that, **** is about to get much worse) - so Gary was early perhaps. So? An imperfect Master, does not a cult make.
I see the real man behind the veil of photo-op humility as an ego-driven narcissist with a likeable personality that people have mistaken as God incarnate.
He, the man, Gary is not God incarnate, if you believe that then your were not a very good student. He is no more God incarnate then you or I are. In fact if you really felt that way about him,not only do you not get the teachings, but you would be a prime example of how students/disciples are a gurus worse problem.
The on-stage references of a self-deprecating persona combined with a strongly charismatic and confident personality lends itself to what he does and who he claims to be. It hooked me when I was young and naïve.
Ahh, so there we have it. You were into the personality. You were hooked on the man, the outer form. Which is all fine, understandable and quite human. But thats also the problem in all of these issues around master/guru and students/disciples now isnt it.
I am not hooked into the man at anything more then the respect and some admiration as I spoke of above. I am 50+ and quite able to think and have a high intolerance for authority, yet here I am, Why? I am hooked on the inner experiences I am having. I am hooked on how I am changing, how my perspective is changing, how my consciousness control over issues is arising, I am hooked on what I am learning and experiencing.
So apparently you and I got into MP for very different reasons. You seem to have been persuaded on the outer, by the man, his personality, etc. I am persuaded by the inner, my experiences.
I was once very much like you: open-minded, curious, and unafraid to experiment with a non-mainstream belief system.
No I don't think you are very much like me. Not based on the above reasons why we are here, what attracted you seems very different then what is attracting me.
the majority of chelas know only what they see during the stage show, and are told only what they need to know, or what the leaders want them to believe.
More accusations. So to speak. But true in that as far as Gary the man and personality, probably close. I mean I don't have much more to go on then what I hear, then what I see on stage or in darshan. I can even agree that there is likely control of the message, spin on the man, put on on purpose, put on by well emanig office workers, put out for who kows what reasons. I dont mean lies, just control.
But I am left with so what? It's human, its how organizations work, its how one protects from assualts, etc. It does not in itself imply corruption, or evil intent, etc etc. Lastly as I said, I don't care all that much about the details of Gary's day to day life. Other then caring if overall he walks his talk, I don't expect him or the office to appear to be perfect.
The numbers your friend listed are inaccurate. The last I heard is that MP is vacillating between 1500 - 1700 members. MP lacks the universal appeal to attract 10,000 followers.
Ok. Cool. I'm not hear because its the latest fad. I am very very happy that not only does MP lack the appeal, but that there is no effort to grow, to recruite, to sign up. I find that quite respectable.
And if your chela-friend doesn’t know, or much care about the number of followers, why list such an exaggerated figure.
I don't know. But I don't find it incriminating as you seem to.
It makes me wonder if your friend thinks that there is strength in numbers, or that the greater the number, the greater the credibility or veracity. While there are some of us who began MP when there were no numbers.
No, I doubt that. He's young but has like 9 years on the path, he's second generation so to speak, his parents are on the path as well. I find him to be one of the more spiritually advanced folks, mostly in the way I see him working with ordinary people, talking about world issues, and is missing any of this silly personality devotion of Gary that you speak of.
He is a great example of walking the talk, of being the example of what can be when one finds a spiritual path that works for them
There’s plenty confusion and ignorance abounding within the ranks of Masterpath.
So? is that not natural. do you think other paths are any different? There was no confusion and ignorance around Jesus, Buddah, Mohammhed? Seriously have you found something else, or any guru lead path, where there is not confusion and ignorance.
Being a paying member of Masterpath is not de facto prerequisite for perceiving or experiencing truth, nor does it mean that the “chelas” are somehow the more evolved and aware souls in the world because they have ‘met the self-proclaimed master Gary.’
Correct. Nor have I ever heard that claimed, in fact I've heard claimed the opposite, that there is a high level of people who's outer life is confused, in turmoil, full of issues when they first come.
But again, your point is true for any path now isn't it? Christianity, Islam, Sekhs, etc etc. As your speaking a pretty universal truth, I dont quite understand the point, and I certainly don't see the context of how this proves MP to be a cult, harmful adn destructive cult.
I could care less if the organization charters a private jet for his travel. I have done such travel for my job in the past. I have a side IT job supporting a Jet Management firm, that does charters, and other things. I understand the ins and out/advantages and disadvantages, Like I said, so what.
Re: the membership dues. I’ve heard Gary tell students to go mow a lawn in order to pay their dues. ... chelas who are on “F-hold.” .. clear up their arrears before attending the meeting, or receiving initiation.
So? Are we having some discussion about cults? Do you think having some bar, $30 a month is an evil thing? You think being firm in paying $30 a month, that mid-western strictness/structure, or that the spiritual aspects of no free lunch so to speak, you really think thats proof of a destructive, evil, cult?
Is this on one of those cult evaluation lists? Are there dues? Are you expected to stay up to date? Silly. Lets go for 10% of all my money, or lets go with the ones that say no dues, but then have several events a year where one is expected to contribute. There isnt a spiritual/religious path around that either has upfront or more insdious behind the seens and sublte pressures on people falling behind. MP is is aleast direct and honest about it.
Can all that comprises the MP be rationalized, justified, and white washed as pure spirituality…I guess it depends on the individual.
As far as I can tell I am no more white-washing then you are black washing, I am no more rationalizing then you are offering irrational arguments to make your case that MP is a destructive and bad and false and evil and all that.
Can you handle that there are those of us who because of our experience with him directly, that we now view MasterPath as a sham, and Gary as a counterfeit.
Absolutely. Not only handle it, but interesting to see it, interesting to see how I react to it, and contemplate on it. I do appreciate the thoughts.
But as I said, I am left seeing right now, not much more then someone who got into this for the wrong reasons, who had a touch of guru worship, seeing Gary as god on earth, etc. None of that is in my experience.
Please understand that I do not apologize for what may be perceived as a cynical, or God forbid, blasphemous critique of MasterPath.
Oh an please don't think I care if you critzes or utter blasphemous words, not at all. I am not offended, or really reacting to you being a blasphenour. Please carry on in that regard. I am not defensive because you have insulted my guru.
Look its easy to see that path didn't work for you, big deal. Its also clear that you put Gary on a pedestal and he fell from your grace. Big deal, it happens all the time in guru/student relationships. Your even it seems hurt, still feeling rejected and all those types of feelings we humans have when someone we love, are devoted to fails us.
My objective is not to invalidate, be dismissive of your feelings.
But on the other hand, your making accusations, you offering a very emotionally biased opinion and doing so with very little real standards of evidence, structure etc. I am offering some counter balance to that. I am offering the insights of someone who doesn't agree or who doesn't have the same experiences as you. Which isn't to attack you personally, I hope I have only attacked the way you making the case, or not making your case.
Thanks for the time to discuss and the thoughts and stuff for me to contemplate on.
Baraka Bashad
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