Give Me A Sign. Please.

[farm108]

Originally Posted by mordant

Personal subjective experiences can feel and be very compelling, but I can personally testify that they are also quite ephemeral, and proof of nothing but to the experiencer and sometimes that doesn't even hold up.

This is your personal experience. And you personally testified. OK. And there are billions of people believers in this world with different personal experiences. Why did you have this experience? I don't know. Why did you lose faith? I don't know. Others lost their faith. Why? I don't know. Others started believing. How come? I don't know.

Are all these billions of people who believe imagining a God that doesn't exist? I don't know. Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong. I have no idea what is in their heart, what experiences they had or not, I'm not capable of reading their hearts and minds. It's their own business if they believe or not.

All I know is my personal experience. And I shared some of it here.

I don't care if you or others believe me or not.

As I said before a few times here, you don't have to believe.

That's all.

[Dave_n_Tenn]

Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes

There are no eyewitness accounts in the NT, nor are the stories confirmed by secular sources.

Sure there are, the apostles were eye witnesses... and what about Jewish sources such as Josephus, and Roman sources such as Tacitus.

[Hannibal Flavius]

Originally Posted by mordant

I had a direct intuitive purely personal interior experience and was a Christian for about thirty years.

Unfortunately I also had direct, objective, personal exterior experiences that, on balance, overwhelmed the personal interior stuff. And once that happened and I admitted that I no longer believed, the personal interior experience turned out to be motivated reasoning, agency inference, confirmation bias, and a nest of other logical fallacies.

Or as Hitchens once said, it all disappeared in a puff of logic.

Personal subjective experiences can feel and be very compelling, but I can personally testify that they are also quite ephemeral, and proof of nothing but to the experiencer and sometimes that doesn't even hold up.

So impressed with your vocabulary, are you a teacher?

Professor?

[mordant]

Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius

So impressed with your vocabulary, are you a teacher?

Professor?

I'm a software architect / developer working on year #41. And I believe the dictum, "if you want to master a topic, teach or write about it". And I have done that in the form of tutorials and documentation and training sub-contractors; I also wrote courseware and then taught it for a training company, and was technical editor for a software monthly. It's also one of the main reasons I post here, to give me an opportunity to think, communicate and see what works and what doesn't to convey ideas.

But no, I'm not a professor and don't even have a college degree. Post high-school, I was too busy making money writing software to go to college to learn how to do what I already was doing; in any case, the courses offered at the time were quite dated.

[phetaroi]

Here's a good about a woman who received a sign from god:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...-go-rcna146944

[Harry Diogenes]

Originally Posted by mountainrose

Harry — lol ……wow, RESISTANT MUCH???
Thanks, Made my point nicely!

As I said, resistant to psuedo-science.

Originally Posted by mountainrose

Yes, there is proof happening on OBEs now — I showed just a small group of studies showing the proof, there are more currently being done, and if you want to cherry pick your resisters then you must also be assuming hundreds of doctors, surgeons , nurses and staff are just flat out lying when they acknowledge even go publicly on record that there’s no way their patient could have possibly seen their actions, conversations, post-it notes brought in during the surgery, tools, folder on top of shelfs, shoe on roof, etc etc

What doctors and nurses? As I said, Long asked people to post their anecdotes on the internet and he then used them. He literally said that in the paper you did not question. He did not check with any doctors or nurses. this is an important point that should have made you stop and ask questions. You simply ignored that valid point, because you are resistant to evidence you do not like.

And I do not presume the doctors and nurses are lying, I presume the NDE investigators are. The infamous shoe on the roof story, for example. It was debunked so long ago it is tragic you still post this. The numbers on the shelf according to Doctor Sam Parnia still has not happened according to his science paper. Or Eben Alexander, and the doctors who said his story was not completely true.

I also presume when there is a genuine head scratcher, that we simply do not know, and that there could also be a natural explanation.

Originally Posted by mountainrose

I understand this all feels scary to you ...

Again false. Please stop telling me what I feel, scared, stressed, usw. I am just amused at once again another theist posting alleged evidence that on closer inspection is junk. Just like creationism, just like the shroud of Turin.

Long even posted several times in his references his own books. Not peer reviewed papers, his own books. That is a bigger red flag than what used to fly over the Kremlin when Stalin was in power.

Originally Posted by mountainrose

... as it passes the limitations of the materialists’ view of the world.

Correct, allowing gullibility and dishonesty to build your world view is a good thing.

Originally Posted by mountainrose

But, hey — even the flat-earthers eventually came on board once the evidence couldn’t be ignored anymore….

And then we have theists who deny the evidence and never come on board.

And it is typical you ignore relevant points you can not answer, such as how does a souls see without eyes and hear without ears. Where is the mechanism, how does a soul function?

[Harry Diogenes]

Originally Posted by mountainrose

Okay, evidence but not proof…..YET…. ( it was certainly proof to our cardiologist neighbor (and so many other doctors) I cited earlier who witnessed this with his heart transplant patient)

They have shown it is NOT O2 deprivation nor from the drugs etc. Too much credible research about this, and I don’t have time to collect it all to show here.
But I’ll back off for now from posting about it, and people can do their own research….

O2 deprivation leads to tunnel vision. I am not claiming NDEs are due to O2 deprivation alone, but it could play a role in people reconstructing events after the event.

Originally Posted by mountainrose

If it wasn’t on the radar with evidence, then major universities would not be funding whole departments and getting grants to study this currently.

Yes, they are studying NDEs, because they happen. That does not mean the anecdotes are true, and from the research done so far, a naturalist explanation is still more plausible.

Originally Posted by mountainrose

Lots of resistance around it, and I do understand why….

No you do not. The resistance is because of the junk science used by theists such as creationists and the shroud of Turin people. This is evidence people will lie to sell books to gullible religious people.

[Harry Diogenes]

Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn

Sure there are, the apostles were eye witnesses...

Only if you believe the gospels are historical.

Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn

and what about Jewish sources such as Josephus, and Roman sources such as Tacitus.

The early Christians searched Josephus and Tacitus for a reference to Jesus, and did not find any. The first we hear from Josephus is in Eusebius in the 4th century AD. For Tacitus it is even worse, so they are both probably later additions.

[Dave_n_Tenn]

Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes

Only if you believe the gospels are historical.



The early Christians searched Josephus and Tacitus for a reference to Jesus, and did not find any. The first we hear from Josephus is in Eusebius in the 4th century AD. For Tacitus it is even worse, so they are both probably later additions.

Well ... because you don't accept their eyewitness accounts, you would be in a incredibly small minority, not to mention that your opinion doesn't make their accounts untrue.

Do you deny the historical accounts of Jesus/Yeshua in general?

[mountainrose]

Harry, you only cite Long — not any of the other researchers and studies. Did you even read the article?

As much as you spend time trying to dumb down and ridicule the belief in God or SIGNS that there’s a God with your intellectual superiority — I guess you must then feel profoundly SUPERIOR to the likes of these Nobel Laureates and scientists below who all felt there were SIGNS pointing to a God or an intelligent creator.
[
But to you they were pretty stupid and misdirected……


The more I study science, the more I am amazed by the complexity of the universe and the more I believe in the existence of a creator."
—Albert Einstein

God created everything." Sir Isaac Newton.

“I can see how it might be possible for a man to look down upon the earth and be an atheist, but I cannot conceive how he could look up into the heavens and say there is no God.” —ABRAHAM LINCOLN

Johannes Kepler (1571 – 1630), one of the greatest astronomers:
"God is great. Great is his power, infinite his wisdom. Praise him, heaven and earth, sun, moon, and stars in your own language. My Lord and my Creator! I would like to proclaim the magnificence of your works to men to the extent that my limited intelligence can understand."

Nicolaus Copernicus (1473 – 1543), astronomer and the first in-depth proponent of heliocentrism:
"Who could live in close contact with the most consummate order and divine wisdom and not feel drawn to the loftiest aspirations? Who could not adore the architect of all these things?"


Isaac Newton (1643 – 1727), founder of classical theoretical physics:
"What we know is a drop, what we do not know is a vast ocean. The admirable arrangement and harmony of the
universe*could only have come from the plan of an omniscient and omnipotent Being."


Carl Linnaeus (1707 – 1778), founder of systematic botany:
"I have seen the eternal, infinite, omniscient, omnipotent God pass close by, and I knelt prostrate in adoration."


Alessandro Volta (1745 – 1827), discovered the basic notions of electricity:*
"I confess the holy, apostolic, and Roman Catholic faith. I thank God who has given me this faith, in which I have the firm intention to live and die."


Andre-Marie Ampere (1775 – 1836), discovered the fundamental laws of electricity:
"How great is God, and our science is just a trifle!"


Augustin Louis Cauchy (1789 – 1857), a distinguished mathematician, founder of complex analysis: 
"I am a Christian, that is, I believe in the divinity of Christ, like all the great astronomers and all the great mathematicians of the past."


Carl Friedrich*Gauss (1777-1855), dubbed the "Prince of Mathematicians," because his insights contributed to many fields of mathematics and science:
"When our last hour sounds, we will have the great and ineffable joy of seeing the one whom we could only glimpse in all our work."


Justus von*Liebig (1803 – 1873), a celebrated chemist:
"The greatness and infinite wisdom of the Creator will be recognized only by those who really endeavor to draw their ideas from the great book we call nature."


Robert Mayer (1814 – 1878), natural scientist (Law of the Conservation of Energy):
"I am ending my life with a conviction that comes from the depths of my heart: true science and true philosophy can not be anything but a[n introductory study] of the Christian religion."


Angelo Secchi (1803 – 1895), famous astronomer:
"From contemplating the heavens to God, there is only a short distance."


Charles*Darwin (1809 – 1882), Theory of Evolution:
"I have never denied the existence of God. I think the theory of evolution is fully compatible with faith in God. I think the greatest argument for the existence of God is the impossibility of demonstrating and understanding that the immense universe, sublime above all measure, and man were the result of chance."


Thomas A.*Edison (1847 – 1931), the prolific inventor who held 1200 patents:
"My utmost respect and admiration to all the engineers, especially the greatest of them all: God."


Carl Ludwig Schleich (1859 – 1922), famous surgeon, pioneer of *local anesthesia:
"I became a believer in my own way through the microscope and observation of nature, and I want to contribute, insofar as I can, to the full harmony between science and religion."


Guglielmo*Marconi (1874 – 1937), inventor of wireless telegraphy, Nobel Prize 1909:
"I declare it proudly: I am a believer. I believe in the power of prayer, and I believe not only as a Catholic, but also as a scientist."


Robert Millikan (1868 – 1953), great American physicist, Nobel Prize 1923:
"I can assert most definitely that the denial of faith lacks any scientific basis. In my view, there will never be a true contradiction between faith and science."


Arthur Eddingtong (1882 – 1946), English Astronomer Royal, mathematician and astrophysicist:
"None of the inventors of atheism was a naturalist. All of them were very mediocre philosophers."


Albert Einstein (1879 – 1955), founder of modern physics (Theory of Relativity inter alia) and 1921 Nobel prize:
"Everyone who is seriously committed to the cultivation of science becomes convinced that in all the laws of the universe is manifest a spirit vastly superior to man, and to which we with our powers must feel humble."


Max Planck (1858 – 1947), founder of quantum physics, Nobel Prize 1918:
"Nothing prevents us, and the momentum of our knowledge requires it… to interrelate the order of the universe and the God of religion. For the believer, God stands at the beginning of their speeches; for the physicist, at the end of them."


Erwin Schrödinger (1887 – 1961), discoverer of wave mechanics, Nobel Prize 1933:
"The finest masterpiece is the one made by God, according to the principles of quantum mechanics…"


Howard H. Aiken (1900-1973), computer pioneer:
"Modern physics teaches me that nature is not capable of ordering itself. The universe presupposes a huge mass of order. It therefore requires a great "First Cause" that is not subject to the second law of transformation of energy and that is therefore Supernatural."


Wernher von Braun (1912 – 1977), German-American, foremost rocket engineer and space architect:
"Above everything is the glory of God, who created the great universe, which man and science discover and research day after day in profound adoration."


Charles Townes (1915), physicist who shared the 1964 Nobel Prize for discovering the principles of the laser:
"As a religious man, I feel the presence and intervention of a Creator beyond myself, but who is always nearby… intelligence had something to do with the creation of the laws of the universe."


Allan Sandage (1926-2010) American astronomer, calculated the rate at which the universe expands and its age by observing distant stars:
"I was practically an atheist in my childhood. Science was what led me to the conclusion that the world is much more complex than we can explain. I can only explain the mystery of existence to myself by the Supernatural."

…….
Do you have a comparable list of celebrated and highly intelligent and accomplished atheists with positive values?
Are these famous atheists your proof and confidence in atheism ———-> Dawkins, Hitchens, Kim Jong il, Pol Pot, Stalin, Lenin, Castro, Nicolás Maduro , Trotsky, Milosevic, Charles Manson, Mao, Karl Marx, etc, etc etc etc etc etc??


…