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Thank you. Now I understand why you Capitalize certain words and other words You do not, but I'm not sure I understand much of the rest you are trying to explain. Maybe close when you touch on sunrises and sunsets as you might note from one of the previous comments I just posted, but not much else. Sorry about This as well. I am but a mere mortal, and an atheist at that. All of which restricts me to more limitation than average. As many who claim to be religious, spiritual and/or believers in God will always go to some effort to make clear as well.
You shouldn't feel "restricted" by your beliefs
You can take what suits you from several beliefs and make that "your" path
Collective thought and beliefs are constructs made by men
Thank you, but I don't feel in any way restricted by my beliefs, because I do exactly as you well describe here. What you describe as what makes for my "path." Why do you suggest otherwise, or that I struggle with limitations? I was being somewhat facetious about being a mere mortal. You know this right?
The limitations and all the rest I was referring to are what others tend to suggest about atheists. Not what I believe about me or other atheists generally speaking.
Thank you, but I don't feel in any way restricted by my beliefs, because I do exactly as you well describe here. What you describe as what makes for my "path." Why do you suggest otherwise, or that I struggle with limitations? I was being somewhat facetious about being a mere mortal. You know this right?
The limitations and all the rest I was referring to are what others tend to suggest about atheists. Not what I believe about me or other atheists generally speaking.
Because you said you are restricted in your post
I feel somewhat restricted as well but for what I say not what I believe.
The Atheist looks to Science to supposedly know all the functions of a heart. So, they remove a heart from the body and look at it under microscopes and study all of it's physical functions as if they have discovered everything there is to know about a human heart. Which teaches them nothing about the true depths of a person's heart that all the dissecting and seeking under a microscope can ever reveal or behold. And completely misses the heart of the matter and the wisdom of a lifetime that the heart they carve up has within it.
To them it is just a specimen to be studied and then discarded. While it contains a world of things they cannot see, that is far greater than and has so much more to share than the knowledge they seek.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Right off the bat here, no. This is a very poor description and/or understanding of what the atheist does...
We look to science to tell us all we can know about how the heart functions, and in part to do this the organ is studied both in and out of the body. All to learn as much as possible about how the organ functions physically.
When it comes to what you, we, people, generally refer to as "matters of the heart," atheists don't look to science for all or even most of the answers, though in some cases even "matters of the heart" can be better understood with the help of science. At a minimum atheists understand, appreciate and respect the very significant difference between the physical organ we all know as the heart and what we all otherwise mean when we are referring to "matters of the heart." Two very different things.
If you or anyone doesn't understand what I am explaining here, then better understanding and/or describing what an atheist does is not possible for someone that confused. If the above is not understood by someone, that someone has no place or real qualification to attempt describing what an atheist does or what an atheist "looks to science" to do.
I highly recommend you stick to what you know. Cars for example.
You call me stupid and confused and then pigeonhole me. While touting looking to science to tell you all you can know about a hearts function inside and out. Also carving up and dividing the heart and heart of the matter into two very different things, as not functioning in a one and the same manner.
I know it is best to refrain from sharing here the scriptural gleaning of what I was sharing...
...So, I will try to relate from a Hollywood movie, and my favorite line in that movie is "oops" as she dropped in the ocean, what she had in her pocket the whole time she shared her story with them. As all their attention was directed to finding this valuable gem called the "heart of the ocean". As if that would make them famous and rich as they expelled great resources and energy to find and recover it.
While she shared a love story that set her free of the people who were cold and callous and who valued wealth and domineering control over love and a free spirit and being imprisoned by that as she had first sought to set her heart free by jumping overboard. And she shared her story of the heart that loved her and set her free, someone who loved her more than their own life. She found greater value in all the wonderful lives she experienced on that ship, and all they overlooked in searching for what they considered a most valuable gem. Where she found true wealth in the heart of the matter from what she experienced. I could write a lot more...
...But go on with your carving up and discarding of everything people share in this thread. If that is where you find your wealth, then I can only hope that someday you will realize that you are missing something. I figure it would be like if you were the captain of the ship and after hearing that woman's story, your only response would be; So, where is the "heart of the ocean" gem.
Last edited by chief scum; 04-07-2024 at 09:19 AM..
You call me stupid and confused and then pigeonhole me. While touting looking to science to tell you all you can know about a hearts function inside and out. Also carving up and dividing the heart and heart of the matter into two very different things, as not functioning in a one and the same manner.
I know it is best to refrain from sharing here the scriptural gleaning of what I was sharing...
...So, I will try to relate from a Hollywood movie, and my favorite line in that movie is "oops" as she dropped in the ocean, what she had in her pocket the whole time she shared her story with them. As all their attention was directed to finding this valuable gem called the "heart of the ocean". As if that would make them famous and rich as they expelled great resources and energy to find and recover it.
While she shared a love story that set her free of the people who were cold and callous and who valued wealth and domineering control over love and a free spirit and being imprisoned by that as she had first sought to set her heart free by jumping overboard. And she shared her story of the heart that loved her and set her free, someone who loved her more than their own life. She found greater value in all the wonderful lives she experienced on that ship, and all they overlooked in searching for what they considered a most valuable gem. Where she found true wealth in the heart of the matter from what she experienced. I could write a lot more...
...But go on with your carving up and discarding of everything people share in this thread. If that is where you find your wealth, then I can only hope that someday you will realize that you are missing something. I figure it would be like if you were the captain of the ship and after hearing that woman's story, your only response would be; So, where is the "heart of the ocean" gem.
Reading this more recent comment reminds me of the better option not to exchange opinion or comments with you, because we not only do we not "see eye to eye," but addressing the source of our differences tends to create negative feelings on your part. Nothing productive is gained by this, so with all due respect and perhaps to get back to the topic of this thread, I thank you. For giving me a sign we should avoid further confrontation between us and see what else might be contributed to this thread going forward. If anything...
Should read more like a tongue-in-cheek-bit of humor. AKA being facetious. That was what I was going for anyway. Though true the part about how all too many people who believe in God with view, criticized and/or look down on atheists and why.
Atheists have a hard time coming to terms with the evidence now on the credibility of OBEs (Out of Body Experiences) during NDEs.
It seems to really throw them off, a lot of resistance appears, and they cling to the old-school explanations of oxygen deprivation or dreams and hallucinations that have all been totally disputed now with the credible evidentiary OBEs.
There are multiple credible studies now showing the evidence that OBEs do occur. There is no name yet for what to call the “essence” that leaves the body — it’s called everything from consciousness, spirit, and soul.
I don’t have time to Google all the new research and credible studies happening around the world, but here is just one from the National Ins of Health that I thought the atheists might feel more comfortable with.
Sorry, It’s a long article compiling various NDE and OBE studies — here is just a sample of a few of the studies in the above article.
Quote:
“The first prospective study of the accuracy of out-of-body observations during near-death experiences was by Dr. Michael Sabom.8 This study investigated a group of patients who had cardiac arrests with NDEs that included OBEs, and compared them with a control group of patients who experienced cardiac crises but did not have NDEs. Both groups of patients were asked to describe their own resuscitation as best they could. Sabom found that the group of NDE patients were much more accurate than the control group in describing their own resuscitations.
Another prospective study of out-of-body observations during near-death experiences with similar methodology to Sabom’s study was published by Dr. Penny Sartori.9 This study also found that near-death experiencers were often remarkably accurate in describing details of their own resuscitations. The control group that did not have NDEs was highly inaccurate and often could only guess at what occurred during their resuscitations.
Two large retrospective studies investigated the accuracy of out-of-body observations during near-death experiences. The first was by Dr. Janice Holden.10 Dr. Holden reviewed NDEs with OBEs in all previously published scholarly articles and books, and found 89 case reports. Of the case reports reviewed, 92% were considered to be completely accurate with no inaccuracy whatsoever when the OBE observations were later investigated.”
End quote
———
There are credible studies happening all over the world now
——
I personally became fascinated in NDEs and OBEs a decade ago when a cardiologist friend told us a story of an NDE patient with an OBE that changed his life as an atheist doctor/surgeon and scientist. Even though his eyes were taped, ears were plugged and he was in deep anesthesia, his patient saw and heard everything happening during his heart transplant operation from about 15 feet above his body — the details were too specific and incredible to make up.
The patient was dead for approximately 20 minutes.
Many hospitals including UVA and John Hopkins have whole departments studying these now. The Dutch are also really on it.
It’s a gift and A SIGN for the atheists[
….
We have had others claiming many credible studies exist, a claim that turned out to be false. It is not that we cling to the old-school explanations, it is that we know there are many fraudulent religious claims, that you are simply dismissing possible alternatives that you do not like, and that it has been observed that many people who study NDEs cherry pick the results they want. Then we have scientists like Dr Parnia who's studies involved actual patients and medical staff, who mentioned all tests for OBEs have so far failed.
And we still have the problem of this alleged soul doing things that require a physical body, such as eyes to see and ears to hear.
Another problem is that if the evidence is that good, why do the majority of religious scientists point out this conclusive evidence.
Also the conclusion of your 'paper' (which is devoid of data expected to be found in an actual scientific paper, it just summarizes anecdotes from the author's own web site), can be explained by NDEs being created after the event, as suggested in a paper I unfortunately did not save, so unfortunately can not link to.
The author of your paper, Jeffrey Long, was using anecdotes supplied by people who filled in a questionnaire from his web site. He did not verify if any of the claims are true or accurate. And linking to people like Dr Janice Holden without telling us what her doctorate is in (counseling, she is not a medical doctor) is suspicious.
This is the problem with alleged credible religious scientific studies, when you actually investigate them (creationism, the shroud of Turin, NDEs), they either are not scientific or they do not support the argument they are meant to be supporting.
Eye witness accounts in the Bible, that are confirmed by Roman and Jewish observations while Jesus was being crucified.
There are no eyewitness accounts in the NT, nor are the stories confirmed by secular sources.
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