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I have a close friend, Edwin, that I served with on a sub. Ed is a Mormon and I was serving as the Protestant Lay-Leader on our boat. Ed and I had many long debates about Mormon theology. Ed had not attended church for over ten years. When Ed was about 6 months out from his planned retirement, Ed's hometown Bishop called him at home while we were in port. His Bishop told him that he knew Ed was approaching his retirement. The Bishop wanted to know if Ed planned on returning to his former hometown, if so the church would help Ed to locate and finance a home. He wanted to know if Ed was finally ready to 'settle down' and to be an active member of the church if so the church was ready to assist in any manner to help get Ed's family re-located. So that Ed could settle into life there and be an elder within their church. The Bishop saw 20 years in the Navy as Ed's youthfulness.
What impressed me was the Bishop's willingness to accept Ed back into the fold.
We are somehow debating whether or not churches substantively help people with their material needs, but the article I posted was really just about why guys like Ed hadn't attended church in 10+ years to begin with. I doubt in most cases they were driven away by some sort of tithing requirement. My church for example taught a sort of informal version of tithing but no one checked up on you or had any idea what you did or didn't put in the offering plate -- at least not back in the days when there was a literal plate being passed around and most people were putting actual currency into them. You could of course write a check, or fill out a form for a tax receipt ... but no one came knocking demanding $$. (And in our case no one came knocking OFFERING $$, either, and I'm not aware of anyone in need that had that happen; we barely had funds to pay our pastor's meager salary). I'd venture to say that even back then (mid 1970s and later) attendance was pretty moribund and unenthusiastic.
We are somehow debating whether or not churches substantively help people with their material needs, but the article I posted was really just about why guys like Ed hadn't attended church in 10+ years to begin with. I doubt in most cases they were driven away by some sort of tithing requirement. My church for example taught a sort of informal version of tithing but no one checked up on you or had any idea what you did or didn't put in the offering plate -- at least not back in the days when there was a literal plate being passed around and most people were putting actual currency into them. You could of course write a check, or fill out a form for a tax receipt ... but no one came knocking demanding $$. (And in our case no one came knocking OFFERING $$, either, and I'm not aware of anyone in need that had that happen; we barely had funds to pay our pastor's meager salary). I'd venture to say that even back then (mid 1970s and later) attendance was pretty moribund and unenthusiastic.
Edwin did not want to live the church lifestyle as a young man, expected to marry young and raise children. By the time I knew him he had been sowing wild oats for 20 years. He was ready to settle down.
on the other hand, I have been in a church where they do track how much each member tithes, and they have no issue with sitting down to discuss the matter. For big church events I have been told that it was only open to fully paid-up members. I have a friend Gary, who just a few weeks ago attended a big class, he paid for it, but the prerequisite to attend was that he had to prove he was fully paid up.
Somehow (I suspect my fundagelical brother) I have started receiving a newsletter from Christianity Today. Their journalistic quality is better than most in the evangelical world, I'll give them that.
Today an article caught my attention. The title is the title of this thread.
So in a new book, according to the article, the author is proposing that the problem is that the church doesn't ask ENOUGH of people. By this, he means there needs to be some sort of call to "greater mutuality" wherein the church somehow returns to its roots of providing refuge for people.
It is an interesting question whether the church is somehow no longer serving as social glue, or if society no longer wants that particular glue. I don't pretend to know for sure. Nor am I sure if this sea change was underway already in my youth or if it's a more recent development. I suspect its roots go back quite a way -- back to the 1950s maybe.
There's a rural congregation outside of town here that advertises itself as a "community" with a "covenant of love" to bind them together. But it just comes off as affected and smarmy to me. I've seen too many such "covenants" that were nothing but window dressing and pretense.
Did such communities even ever exist anywhere but our hopes and dreams? I wonder.
Curious what others think. I can see a family providing that sort of thing, under ideal circumstances at least ... but a group of people with all their disagreements around dogma and practice and finance and priorities and governance ... I don't really think so.
I'd say yes. The church I attended growing up certainly was such a community. Also found one like that in college and my wife's church when we first married. But since the 90s I haven't been able to find such. The last couple of churches we attended were very closed groups. There was a definite "in" crowd that was just the continuation of middle school cliques into adulthood. And newcomers were not in the clique. The other thing was these groups seemed to be very secularly politically motivated rather church motivated. In fact, I've watched a couple of churches split over secular politics. I think what's happening in the Methodist Church (which I grew up in) is a perfect example. I often say that I didn't leave the Methodist Chruch; the Chruch left me.
I don't think that nobody will say yes. There are always "helpers". The concern may be what if nobody influential says yes.
Growing up, I think our priest did a great job at church. He gave great sermons and greeted every single person who exited the church. He knew all of us by name. He organized annual festivals that I looked forward to every year. He organized clubs for children and teenagers. There were activities for senior citizens. Those were the happiest times of my childhood. We worked hard preparing for all of it, sweating in the heat making food, and running around trying to gather supplies. It didn't matter that it looked like we gave more than what we physically walked away with. Everything was done out of kindness and it was accepted. At that moment, it felt like you couldn't put a price on kindness and what we got out of it.
Then he was moved to another church.
Many families followed him to his new location which was too far for us. We continued to support our new priest who was a good man as well, but it didn't matter. The church lost its magic. This time, it felt like we were giving more than getting back, therefore, everything was scaled back. My mom told me that the church hosted its first festival since I left decades ago. Maybe it can happen again.
Now I see that there was a price to everything we gave, and the price was that we had to have somebody accept what we were offering. That is called giving a chance and I really only see that happen in families or in very strong communites, which often goes along with wealth. Im not saying you have to be rich but being financially secure can free up time to build the community. My conclusion is that people want to be around those they like best. If those people don't go to church, then they won't go either.
Many families followed him to his new location which was too far for us. We continued to support our new priest who was a good man as well, but it didn't matter. The church lost its magic. This time, it felt like we were giving more than getting back, therefore, everything was scaled back. My mom told me that the church hosted its first festival since I left decades ago. Maybe it can happen again.
This is a phenomenon I saw a few times myself, where the church revolved around a someone's personality or charisma or vision (usually the pastor) and when that person was gone, so was "the magic". It wasn't always (or even often) that the leader was trying to build some kind of cult of personality; it is just that he was a great leader and visionary and an impossible act to follow.
The real mystery is why anyone does accept it. Christians attribute this to God's calling and conviction through his Holy Spirit. Calvinists have one view of that, Arminians another, but in any event it's a mystery.
It is no mystery. It is the de facto belief system in our culture. No more a mystery than why there are a whole lot of Muslims in the middle east.
As to the actual thread topic. I have no idea what will happen if churches get more demanding but it seems like traditional mainline protestant churches are going to continue to dwindle in favor of the hip non denominational McChurch type places. Seems like one advantage of those churches is that you can get involved or you can hide in the crowd. Doesn't really matter.
It is no mystery. It is the de facto belief system in our culture. No more a mystery than why there are a whole lot of Muslims in the middle east.
As to the actual thread topic. I have no idea what will happen if churches get more demanding but it seems like traditional mainline protestant churches are going to continue to dwindle in favor of the hip non denominational McChurch type places. Seems like one advantage of those churches is that you can get involved or you can hide in the crowd. Doesn't really matter.
You missed my point in your first sentence and then reemphasized my point in your second.
There is a very great distinction between genuinely accepting the actual Gospel and being a cultural Christian. This was Kierkegaard's point about his native Denmark in the 18th Century - i.e., he argued that it was virtually impossible to become an actual Christian in a land where Christianity was the official state religion and one's Christianity was taken for granted from the cradle to the grave.
Christianity in America largely is, and always has been, cultural Christianity. What you call the hip non-denominational McChurch-type places are the latest manifestation of this. Their Christianity is so undemanding and entirely conformed to the culture that it is largely indistinguishable from it.
The actual Gospel message is indeed a tough sell, and those who fully accept it, who live by it, are few and far between.
Studies show the undemanding churches you describe are reaching a point of cultural conformity where they are actually beginning to lose membership because they no longer offer anything different from what the culture offers. May as well sleep in on Sunday morning or spend it at the beach. This is true even within mainline denominations that a few decades ago might have been viewed as fully Gospel-oriented but are trying to retain membership via the misguided route of cultural conformity.
The same studies show that what you call the demanding churches are the ones whose memberships aren't dwindling. Christians who do accept the Gospel message and try to live by it hunger for something more than what cultural Christianity offers. But they are, and always have been, a distinct minority within the larger phenomenon of cultural Christianity.
Christians who do accept the Gospel message and try to live by it hunger for something more than what cultural Christianity offers. But they are, and always have been, a distinct minority within the larger phenomenon of cultural Christianity.
Yes, the tattered "remnant" that will make it into heaven, while 99% of humanity burns for eternity. Quite the Master Plan for saving humanity from a fate that god himself decreed to begin with.
Yes, the tattered "remnant" that will make it into heaven, while 99% of humanity burns for eternity. Quite the Master Plan for saving humanity from a fate that god himself decreed to begin with.
And that's what many people who label themselves as christians fail to see...that odds are that they won't be the ones getting into heaven. They don't realize that they are one of the rich that Jesus talked about:
"Worldwide statistics show that, in fact, you are probably one of the world’s wealthiest people. According to a paper from the World Bank in 2012, if you make more than $50,000 annually, you are in the global 1 percent."*
"Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” -Matthew 19:21-24
Although not in the sense of biblical passages, I didn't realize how 'rich' MOST Americans are until I started traveling to Southeast Asia. Didn't matter -- Bangkok or upcountry Thailand, places in Malaysia, places in Indonesia and Burma. Most Americans don't see that they are part of the 1%...or even 5%.
And that's what many people who label themselves as christians fail to see...that odds are that they won't be the ones getting into heaven. They don't realize that they are one of the rich that Jesus talked about:
"Worldwide statistics show that, in fact, you are probably one of the world’s wealthiest people. According to a paper from the World Bank in 2012, if you make more than $50,000 annually, you are in the global 1 percent."*
"Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” -Matthew 19:21-24
Although not in the sense of biblical passages, I didn't realize how 'rich' MOST Americans are until I started traveling to Southeast Asia. Didn't matter -- Bangkok or upcountry Thailand, places in Malaysia, places in Indonesia and Burma. Most Americans don't see that they are part of the 1%...or even 5%.
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Good post, phet
