Hate and Love are two sides of the same coin. (disciples, spirits)

[.sparrow.]

Originally Posted by cb2008

I am sorry, i took your “peace” as a salaam, namaste, goodbye. It seemed you had stated your views and were done. I did not realize you had questions other the important one, in my opinion, what is the point of life.
Which I answered.
I have trouble separating questions that seem simply rhetorical rather than explorative.If you think you can list your questions separate from your views and opinions, I am happy to try. I may not have answers to all of them, but i can respond to those that my teachings and learning have revealed to me. These are not new ideas, these are teachings of Vedanta philosophy that are thousands of years old and millions of people live with them comfortably.
Looking forwards to explore your questions.

I say "peace" at the end of a post to someone, sometimes, when I'm trying to convey "peace".
(not "goodbye").

Well... these questions don't seem rhetoricall, but rather explorative:

- do you personally form any relationships with people, bonds with people that you share in your personal life? How deeply do those bonds go? Not very deep, because "attachment" is a negative thing in your view? I'm really just trying to understand where you're coming from.

- It seems like a contradiction. On the one hand, it's all "self" and "detachment", and on the other hand, we are all just going to morph into some cosmic spirit where there is no longer individuals? Your attachments to people in this life means little to nothing, on a personal level, because the relationship will ultimately (in your view) end? What if it doesn't end? What if the "decay" and "death" is just a temporary fleeting state of being?

[Mircea]

Originally Posted by .sparrow.

So in the example of a child who is abused. The child himself is to blame for his reaction to the abuse? That the source of his suffering is himself? Because he is not accepting the abuse because "this world is crazy!"

I'm not trying to be dramatic, here with the above example, but it's a valid question.

Yes, it is and you can see how whacked the beliefs of some people really are who would even think about blaming a child for the abuse they suffer.

Children, whether physically, sexually, or psychologically abused, or who live in dysfunctional families, learn to cope in the best way they can.

Unfortunately, because they are children and do not have sufficiently developed minds, they learn all the wrong coping skills, and it is that which causes problems for them in the future.

Without psychological intervention, and few get it, it's a done deal by the time they're adolescents and from that point on, it takes years and years of intensive psychotherapy to correct it.

Originally Posted by cb2008

The abuse of a child falls on all of us. We all equally share the suffering of the child and the responsibility for the abuse.

Well, aren't we glad someone died and named you god.

I am not responsible for something I cannot possibly be aware is happening.

Originally Posted by cb2008

As to the point to life? There is no point to life, it is essentially a state of delusion.

That's what the delusional believe. For everyone else, the goal, aside from our genetically programmed goal of reproducing, it is to be all you can be and learn all you can. It would seem you still haven't learned why one flavor of Hinduism that came after the other flavors and before other flavors has you hot and bothered.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by Mircea

Yes, it is and you can see how whacked the beliefs of some people really are who would even think about blaming a child for the abuse they suffer.

Children, whether physically, sexually, or psychologically abused, or who live in dysfunctional families, learn to cope in the best way they can.

Unfortunately, because they are children and do not have sufficiently developed minds, they learn all the wrong coping skills, and it is that which causes problems for them in the future.

Without psychological intervention, and few get it, it's a done deal by the time they're adolescents and from that point on, it takes years and years of intensive psychotherapy to correct it.

Well, aren't we glad someone died and named you god.

I am not responsible for something I cannot possibly be aware is happening.

That's what the delusional believe. For everyone else, the goal, aside from our genetically programmed goal of reproducing, it is to be all you can be and learn all you can. It would seem you still haven't learned why one flavor of Hinduism that came after the other flavors and before other flavors has you hot and bothered.

When you define away Reality as delusion, all manner of weird worldviews are possible.

[cb2008]

Originally Posted by .sparrow.

I say "peace" at the end of a post to someone, sometimes, when I'm trying to convey "peace".
(not "goodbye").

Well... these questions don't seem rhetoricall, but rather explorative:

- do you personally form any relationships with people, bonds with people that you share in your personal life?

Of course.


How deeply do those bonds go?

Interesting question. Not sure how one measures the depth of bond. My relationship with my children, who are now adults, is perhaps deepest. Next is my husband and it is deep and a different kind of bond. Next is my siblings, then friends, all various kinds relationships. Relationship could also be with inanimate objects, one's house, car, heritage, national flag.

Not very deep, because "attachment" is a negative thing in your view? I'm really just trying to understand where you're coming from.
Attachment is neither negative nor positive. It is not attachment to the objects of our perception, relationship, but the attachment to the emotions that they rise in us that needs examination and inquiry. Essentially we are bonded to the emotions and bound by it.

It can be a negative relationship as well. We may attach negative emotions to people, to objects, say the Nazi symbol, or positive emotions to say winning the lottery, or gambling. It is always about attachment to emotions. Many alcoholics are addicted/attached to the effect of the liquor, not to the taste of the whiskey. It is the addiction to emotion it gives rise to.


- It seems like a contradiction. On the one hand, it's all "self" and "detachment", and on the other hand, we are all just going to morph into some cosmic spirit where there is no longer individuals?
This is a statement not a question even if posed as one.


Your attachments to people in this life means little to nothing, on a personal level, because the relationship will ultimately (in your view) end?



Again it is not attachment to people but to the emotion the person rises in you. Are you saying you are unable to understand the difference or does ignoring it makes it easier to make your point? Do you not have an emotion rising in you about me, as you ask these questions? Sure you do.



What if it doesn't end? What if the "decay" and "death" is just a temporary fleeting state of being?
Death is pretty final, and the body in fact will decay rapidly and will become dirt that it came from.

The spirit within, which Advaita calls the Self or Existence, however is eternal and will remain.

[Oakback]

Originally Posted by cb2008

- do you personally form any relationships with people, bonds with people that you share in your personal life?

Of course.


How deeply do those bonds go?

Interesting question. Not sure how one measures the depth of bond. My relationship with my children, who are now adults, is perhaps deepest. Next is my husband and it is deep and a different kind of bond. Next is my siblings, then friends, all various kinds relationships. Relationship could also be with inanimate objects, one's house, car, heritage, national flag.

Not very deep, because "attachment" is a negative thing in your view? I'm really just trying to understand where you're coming from.
Attachment is neither negative nor positive. It is not attachment to the objects of our perception, relationship, but the attachment to the emotions that they rise in us that needs examination and inquiry. Essentially we are bonded to the emotions and bound by it.

It can be a negative relationship as well. We may attach negative emotions to people, to objects, say the Nazi symbol, or positive emotions to say winning the lottery, or gambling. It is always about attachment to emotions. Many alcoholics are addicted/attached to the effect of the liquor, not to the taste of the whiskey. It is the addiction to emotion it gives rise to.


- It seems like a contradiction. On the one hand, it's all "self" and "detachment", and on the other hand, we are all just going to morph into some cosmic spirit where there is no longer individuals?
This is a statement not a question even if posed as one.


Your attachments to people in this life means little to nothing, on a personal level, because the relationship will ultimately (in your view) end?



Again it is not attachment to people but to the emotion the person rises in you. Are you saying you are unable to understand the difference or does ignoring it makes it easier to make your point? Do you not have an emotion rising in you about me, as you ask these questions? Sure you do.



What if it doesn't end? What if the "decay" and "death" is just a temporary fleeting state of being?
Death is pretty final, and the body in fact will decay rapidly and will become dirt that it came from.

The spirit within, which Advaita calls the Self or Existence, however is eternal and will remain.

May I break into the interesting discussion to contribute an observation.

It would seem to me, that most Abrahamic traditions refer to a personal God. Furthermore, many Christians then refer to that personal God as Trinity. Which seems to inform much of their beliefs, doctrines and traditions.

Whereas, the Eastern traditions seem to me at least, "panentheistic".

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by Mircea

Yes, it is and you can see how whacked the beliefs of some people really are who would even think about blaming a child for the abuse they suffer.

Children, whether physically, sexually, or psychologically abused, or who live in dysfunctional families, learn to cope in the best way they can.

Unfortunately, because they are children and do not have sufficiently developed minds, they learn all the wrong coping skills, and it is that which causes problems for them in the future.

Without psychological intervention, and few get it, it's a done deal by the time they're adolescents and from that point on, it takes years and years of intensive psychotherapy to correct it.



Well, aren't we glad someone died and named you god.

I am not responsible for something I cannot possibly be aware is happening.



That's what the delusional believe. For everyone else, the goal, aside from our genetically programmed goal of reproducing, it is to be all you can be and learn all you can. It would seem you still haven't learned why one flavor of Hinduism that came after the other flavors and before other flavors has you hot and bothered.

I think it's bizarre that the other poster accepts blame for child sexual abuse. Should we turn her in to the authorities?

[cb2008]

Originally Posted by Oakback

May I break into the interesting discussion to contribute an observation.

It would seem to me, that most Abrahamic traditions refer to a personal God. Furthermore, many Christians then refer to that personal God as Trinity. Which seems to inform much of their beliefs, doctrines and traditions.

Whereas, the Eastern traditions seem to me at least, "panentheistic".

I don't know about Eastern Traditions, but Hinduism is Monism. Everything is a manifestation of Divinity. Divinity is IN everything, but everything is not Divinity. Thus besides deities, Hindus will venerate Trees, Mountains, Rivers, animals and birds as manifestation of Divinity. Essentially it is the recognition that what is existence in me is the same as what is existence in you. There is only One Existence.

[Oakback]

Originally Posted by cb2008

I don't know about Eastern Traditions, but Hinduism is Monism. Everything is a manifestation of Divinity. Divinity is IN everything, but everything is not Divinity. Thus besides deities, Hindus will venerate Trees, Mountains, Rivers, animals and birds as manifestation of Divinity. Essentially it is the recognition that what is existence in me is the same as what is existence in you. There is only One Existence.

Thank you. You said it better then I could.

How does Karma, fit in with that view.
As someone who is ignorant and uninformed relative to your beliefs, it would appear to someone who believes in a "personal" God, that karma adds the relational dimension to the practice of of your beliefs. Without which, there would be no personal consequences to cause and effect.

[cb2008]

Originally Posted by Oakback

Thank you. You said it better then I could.

How does Karma, fit in with that view.
As someone who is ignorant and uninformed relative to your beliefs, it would appear to someone who believes in a "personal" God, that karma adds the relational dimension to the practice of of your beliefs. Without which, there would be no personal consequences to cause and effect.

You are welcome, Oakback. You are neither ignorant nor uninformed.
Karma relates to Jiva- the life form that is born, experiences the pleasures and sufferings of worldly life, ages, decays, and dies. This is Samsara - the cycle of birth and death. Hinduism teaches that one must do good deeds, not do bad deeds, live according the the rules and laws of the Vedas, observe all the religious dictates, and can gather good karmas and come back to live a more comfortable life next time, better parents, better jobs, better wife/husband, and so on.
Advaita, which is a philosophy, also based on the Vedas, teaches that true freedom and contentment lies not in good karma, but no karma at all. Freedom lies in knowledge of the Self, the knowledge that Divinity is not outside of one but is within, and Divinity is all there is. This knowledge when realized as truth will release us from the bondage of the cycle of Samsara. And it can be achieved in one's life itself not at death.
Hindus pray to a personal God to get this knowledge, and also pray for things all people do - safety, security, happiness, good karmas.
Advaita says you can pray all you want, and you may or may not get them per your karma, but you can obtain freedom and release from bondage of Samsara only through knowledge.


I am sorry if I have not answered your question adequately. Please ask me again.

[Oakback]

Originally Posted by cb2008

You are welcome, Oakback. You are neither ignorant nor uninformed.
Karma relates to Jiva- the life form that is born, experiences the pleasures and sufferings of worldly life, ages, decays, and dies. This is Samsara - the cycle of birth and death. Hinduism teaches that one must do good deeds, not do bad deeds, live according the the rules and laws of the Vedas, observe all the religious dictates, and can gather good karmas and come back to live a more comfortable life next time, better parents, better jobs, better wife/husband, and so on.
Advaita, which is a philosophy, also based on the Vedas, teaches that true freedom and contentment lies not in good karma, but no karma at all. Freedom lies in knowledge of the Self, the knowledge that Divinity is not outside of one but is within, and Divinity is all there is. This knowledge when realized as truth will release us from the bondage of the cycle of Samsara. And it can be achieved in one's life itself not at death.
Hindus pray to a personal God to get this knowledge, and also pray for things all people do - safety, security, happiness, good karmas.
Advaita says you can pray all you want, and you may or may not get them per your karma, but you can obtain freedom and release from bondage of Samsara only through knowledge.


I am sorry if I have not answered your question adequately. Please ask me again.

Thanks. And I think you've answered my question. Frankly, I'm not sure if I know the right questions.

It would seem that our beliefs have more that unite us, then divide us.

It's those nasty doctrines and dogmas that have evolved over the millenia that seem to create the dissonance.