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Say you have 1000 people praying for Russia to win.
Say you have 1001 people praying for UK to win.
Say you have 5 people with huge wisdom, grace, knowledge of the Nature of Reality, connection to God/the Creative Great Divine Mind or Spirit, say,
after decades of 10 hour days of deep meditation, fasting and so on...
yogis, swamis, saints, masters, monks.
Which would influence the outcome?
My bet would be on the 5.
Nowhere in my post or the poster's statement I was replying to even implied anything about "material" results of prayer. So it seems that your focus was on a way to attack my statement of disbelief on this prayer issue.
But if you want to sidetrack this issue, how convenient of you to switch this prayer issue into something completely un-provable just so you can say it ALWAYS works. When everyone knows it doesn't work.
And please show me the bible verse(s) to back up your claim that prayer is not for "material" requests from the Christian "god". That will be quite a shock to all of the Christians who pray for money, food, a place to live in, cure their illness, etc...
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Lyimg about your actual concern about the effectiveness of prayer will not avoid the reality that ONLY the physical or material effects can be measured secondhand. Otherwise, the individual is the ONLY test of the effectiveness of prayer and you know it.
Of course I know it. And I also know you know it as well, and that's why you made up this reply:
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Your focus is on the physical and material aspects and NOT the spiritual aspects that exist within our consciousness. God is concerned with our spiritual development and that is where any interventions will be evident as we consciously respond to whatever led us to resort to prayer in the first place. That is the role of the Comforter. It is NOT a magic genie in a lamp or Santa Claus.
Because prayer does NOT work and so you just punted by throwing out that "subjective" un-provable nonsense. When you also know that prayer IS suppose to be for ANYTHING, even "material" things. That's why you didn't even try to present any bible verses to back up your claim.
Actually, it is a poor reflection on a person when they pretend they did not mean material and measurable results of the effectiveness of prayer when everyone KNOWS that is what they were referring to.
You're not very good a taking a hit on being proven wrong I see.
Now rather that admit you were WRONG, you come up with the lame ahh... well... "everybody "KNOWS" that is what they were referring to". That's LAME, can't you do any better than that?
But besides your failed attempt at deflection, prayer does not work for anything, either material, consciousness, or spiritual development.
Good question(s). Nice thread. Again my compliments. My first answer is that it depends on who you ask and next thought is that we all know how this goes, but as a believer in god once upon a time, now atheist, this is a question I had to face and grapple with for a good while during my early life. If not all my life...
Thanks. Even as a Christian, I've grappled with same question. Let's see if we can figure it out!
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I sincerely believe it is very easy to tie outcomes or results to prayer, because our minds are very good at creating images, thoughts and emotions that align with our predispositions. If we believe in a god, for example, obviously, we're inclined to see, think and feel all that goes on around us is because of that god. If we're not predisposed that way, we are more likely to see otherwise. Objectively. There have been many tests that prove how our preconditioning affect our mental processes this way. This is why attorneys go to the trouble they do to select jurors who won't have the sort of predispositions that will cause them to be biased one way or another. With this example too, even in a court of law, facts, evidence and proof will "go right out the window" when people are predisposed toward one opinion or another. One belief or another.
Um, not quite. Your summation doesn't explain those who haven't had any kind of religious training, and yet gravitate toward Christianity, especially later in life.
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This is why the gambler who believes in god and prays they'll roll a seven feels there is a god whenever they roll a seven! Not the many more times they don't. AKA human nature.
Again, not quite sure if I agree...
I live in Las Vegas, and I've gambled before . Have I asked for God's assistance? Yup. Have I gotten it? Yup. Have I NOT gotten it when I've asked? YUP! But that didn't stop me from believing him Him.
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As I got older, after a period of time during which I began to question what I was taught not to question, I began to see too many fallacies and/or the lack of facts, evidence or proof that a belief in a god (or prayer) was well justified. We all accept this whether we are religious or not, because we all recognize the need for faith rather than facts, evidence or proof to believe in a god. All this coupled with what I began to see as facts, evidence and proof that god was a man-made construct. Faith too for that matter. Facts, evidence and proof that much better supported alternative conclusion, over the belief in a god.
Maybe it has to do with the kind of 'faith' you had. I mean, I didn't expect God to ALWAYS come through, especially not in the WAY I wanted Him to.
And sometimes, I was able to figure out WHY He didn't come through.
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More specifically with regard to this age old pesky issue about whether coincidence can or should be viewed as other than coincidence, there is no question that sometimes the coincidence can seem like TOO MUCH coincidence to be coincidence, but being the humans that we are, we're not good at recognizing all the countless occasions when what we hope or wish or pray for doesn't turn out in any way like what we would expect if a "hand of providence" were actually involved. We prefer to see all events in light of what we prefer to believe. Also how we seem to see only the good about those we fall in love with. Somehow "blind" to the bad. Again, human nature. How our mind and emotions work.
Just a tidbit of my own life...
I do NOT...um...let me re-phrase....I'm not the kind of person who has what's called by some, "good luck." My late husband was INCREDIBLY "lucky." Seriously, he was the kind of person who could buy a lottery ticket...and NOT having bought one EVER...and win $200.
Meanwhile, there *I* was. I'm sure you're heard the saying, "If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have any luck at all." That was me, in a nutshell...
...that is, until I turned BACK to Christ.
Can't say I've won millions, but I've definitely gotten what I've prayed for. Megatimes.
Coincidence?
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Case in point, I just finished reading a fascinating book self-published by a dear friend of our family who recently died. I picked up his book at his Celebration of Life. In it he describes about a dozen incredible coincidences or cases of good fortune that he questions as perhaps the result of "the hand of providence." Like once being late to catch a plane. Missed the flight. Later learned the plane crashed and all on board had died. Hard not to think perhaps the "hand of providence." Right? Certainly easy to do so in any case. Never mind the people who perished in the plane crash of course. Or their loved ones.
Ha! ONLY a 'dozen'? That's why I don't see the happenings in my life as mere coincidences. They have been too many to name.
Like I asked, at WHAT POINT do we stop believing it's "just coincidence"?
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At the end of his book he confirms that despite all the amazing coincidences and/or cases of unbelievable good fortunate, he did not believe there was a god. In part, because he also recognized all the alternatively incomprehensible suffering he and his family had to endure. Tragedy that he similarly could not for any good reason attribute to a god.
Ya know...tying 'coincidence' along with 'suffering' doesn't seem like a good parallel.
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On balance, it more logically seems to be the case that life tends to be an ongoing case of "good, bad and ugly" things happening to us that are quite varied and random in nature. One day we can be "on top of the world" and the next be diagnosed with a terminal disease. Everyone will be different in terms of how they interpret their "ups and downs." Needless to say, again, those who believe in a god will see all things through that lens. Those who don't will see otherwise.
But why IS that? I mean, even my 'best friend' Thrill believes that there's some "diety", because of the "order" of the world, for lack of better words.
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Those in question do well to continue to question in my opinion, because the truth either way is not finally realized by assuming anything. It's good questions answered in proper objective fashion that reveals the truth about all things. A process that should never end in my opinion. As I'm sure any religious person would also argue no atheist should stop asking questions and/or seeking the truth.
My opinion in any case, and reason for it.
I agree.
I see atheists and Christians asking the same questions. But for SOME reason, we come to different conclusions...
I recall reading "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman a few years ago. It was left in a pew by...someone. I picked it up and thought, "FINALLY! Someone GETS IT!" Then I read it. I was scratching my head thinking, 'Why oh WHY does someone who has the same information, come to a different conclusion?" And this astonished me, because of my background in law!
Maybe there's just no solution...kind of like world hunger...
Anywho, Thanks, LearnMe. You DO make me think...probably not to *your* side of thinking, but thinking, nonetheless.
Oh, don't be ridiculous, phet. You know what I mean. The point is, that SOME Ukranians may be praying for the war to end. Others may be focusing on the more immediate...such as, praying for the safety of themselves/family...or praying to get warm blankets or find food...or that their family stays together...or that they get OUT of the Ukraine, and find employment...or to find some token that's missing, buried underneath the rubble of what used to be their home...or clean water...or a toilet...
This is EXACTLY what I find so absurd about this prayer nonsense.
One can sit there in complete self-imposed helplessness and talk to themselves/pray for all of the things you mentioned, until they just DIE waiting for it to be miraculously brought to them. While everyone else just goes out and GETS what they need to survive.
No one has a clue, because there is no way to know who is praying for what or how many, but it stands to reason that most people who are religious will pray that bad things won't happen to them. At times of serious stress, even the non-religious are inclined to pray. That God will intervene and save them from hardship. Desperation is not subject to reason or logic, and knows no bounds.
Yes, I agree.
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That said, we look at any natural disaster and what do we see? Say the earthquake in Turkey and Syria. Now an estimated over 40,000 people dead (or pick your war or disaster). No one knows what they were praying or hoping before they died, but I'm sure they had no want to die. What of the loved ones left behind however? How many prayed with all their heart that their loved ones would be pulled out alive rather than be found dead?
Sooooo, what's your point? Is it that since all those people died in Turkey, there isn't a God?
See, that's the thing with atheists. They somehow believe that if God was truly "all loving", that there would be NO SUFFERING. AT ALL. At what point did God even SAY that?
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No one knows, but I'll bet my last atheist dollar the great majority prayed for their loved ones or are still praying. Many more thousands injured praying they'll recover from their injuries too. Survive and not loose their limbs or become incapable of taking care of themselves. Far too many by any measure who will not come out the way the prayers beg for.
You're probably right. Then again, if those people are Christian, they DO believe in an after-life. And they believe that the after-life is much, MUCH better than this life here. No wars...No hatred. No jealousy. No greed. No lying. No theft.
Is it provable? Nope. But Christians have HOPE. Could be that we all just go to our graves, having lived the life we led...and...for most of us...so WHAT?
Christians find PROMISE in and through Jesus. And I'll tell you what...I'd rather be on the side of Jesus, then to believe that there's nothing after this life.
A continued life without suffering? Bring me on! While there may not be 'proof', there IS evidence. Just depends on how one wants to look at it.
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How are all those numbers accounted for by the religious person? As usual it won't be something objectively reasonable. Instead it will be something like "god working in mysterious ways." I mean again, we all well know how this sort of thing goes...
Christians have tried to say, over and over again, that's it's all personal. If you have a toothache today, LearnMe, it's personal. No one else experiences what you feel right now. You might say, "Well, others have experiened it." and you'd be right. But others have also experiences God, in their own way.
Can you ABSOLUTELY deny this?
Rant over.
Sidenote, LearnMe. But you're one of the few atheists on this board I LOVE talking to. Believe it or not, I really do admire you.
Lyimg about your actual concern about the effectiveness of prayer will not avoid the reality that ONLY the physical or material effects can be measured secondhand. Otherwise, the individual is the ONLY test of the effectiveness of prayer and you know it.
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Originally Posted by The Evenstar
You're not very good a taking a hit on being proven wrong I see.
Now rather that admit you were WRONG, you come up with the lame ahh... well... "everybody "KNOWS" that is what they were referring to". That's LAME, can't you do any better than that?
But besides your failed attempt at deflection, prayer does not work for anything, either material, consciousness, or spiritual development.
Well I would say that certainly might be true in your case, but not in my experience nor do I suspect in Mink57's experience.
This is EXACTLY what I find so absurd about this prayer nonsense.
One can sit there in complete self-imposed helplessness and talk to themselves/pray for all of the things you mentioned, until they just DIE waiting for it to be miraculously brought to them. While everyone else just goes out and GETS what they need to survive.
Anyone I know who prays also goes out and gets what the need in life.
I have literally never met a person who sits inside a room and prays day in and day out. Have you? Even Tibetan monks get out for walks and stop to eat and sleep. And from what I hear, the occasional smoke.
It is so hard to have a conversation with someone who has to take every thought to its extreme. How about real, actual life?
This is EXACTLY what I find so absurd about this prayer nonsense.
One can sit there in complete self-imposed helplessness and talk to themselves/pray for all of the things you mentioned, until they just DIE waiting for it to be miraculously brought to them. While everyone else just goes out and GETS what they need to survive.
How the HECK do YOU know that they just 'die'?
Again, Christians believe in an after-life. And that the after-life is BETTER than what we have here.
How the HECK do YOU know that they just 'die'?
Again, Christians believe in an after-life. And that the after-life is BETTER than what we have here.
Personally, I'd rather have hope than none....
Two very big assumptions.
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