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Oh, don't be ridiculous, phet. You know what I mean. The point is, that SOME Ukranians may be praying for the war to end. Others may be focusing on the more immediate...such as, praying for the safety of themselves/family...or praying to get warm blankets or find food...or that their family stays together...or that they get OUT of the Ukraine, and find employment...or to find some token that's missing, buried underneath the rubble of what used to be their home...or clean water...or a toilet...
No, I know what you said.
But take the above that you wrote...what do you think is the prayer success rate?
And I've already answered the question. Not directly to you, but answered nonetheless.
No, I think he has a legit question. In any war you've got millions of people praying for their side to win and millions of people on the other side praying that they win. Hmmmm.
But take the above that you wrote...what do you think is the prayer success rate?
I have no clue.
Then again, neither do you.
For all I know, the millions who were able to leave, ALL prayed to be able to do so. Then again, perhaps NONE of them prayed (which, wouldn't seem likely).
At what point do we pray, and stop believing that the answer to our prayers is "just coincidence"?
At what point do we pray, and really, truly believe that we received an answer to our prayers..
...and it's not some 'happenstance' thing that happened?
What SAY you?
Seems to me that so many believe that IF they pray, they're supposed to get an answer
immediately...or, it's 'no deal' in their minds.
AND, it's supposed to be the answer that they want, the WAY they want it.
When did Jesus ever say that?
I get answers to my prayers all the time. Not the way i wanted...not in the time I wanted 'it', whatever 'it' was....
And it's not by some 'coincidence'''; it's often specific.
Don't know why it doesn't happen for other folks...
Good question(s). Nice thread. Again my compliments. My first answer is that it depends on who you ask and next thought is that we all know how this goes, but as a believer in god once upon a time, now atheist, this is a question I had to face and grapple with for a good while during my early life. If not all my life...
I sincerely believe it is very easy to tie outcomes or results to prayer, because our minds are very good at creating images, thoughts and emotions that align with our predispositions. If we believe in a god, for example, obviously, we're inclined to see, think and feel all that goes on around us is because of that god. If we're not predisposed that way, we are more likely to see otherwise. Objectively. There have been many tests that prove how our preconditioning affect our mental processes this way. This is why attorneys go to the trouble they do to select jurors who won't have the sort of predispositions that will cause them to be biased one way or another. With this example too, even in a court of law, facts, evidence and proof will "go right out the window" when people are predisposed toward one opinion or another. One belief or another.
This is why the gambler who believes in god and prays they'll roll a seven feels there is a god whenever they roll a seven! Not the many more times they don't. AKA human nature.
As I got older, after a period of time during which I began to question what I was taught not to question, I began to see too many fallacies and/or the lack of facts, evidence or proof that a belief in a god (or prayer) was well justified. We all accept this whether we are religious or not, because we all recognize the need for faith rather than facts, evidence or proof to believe in a god. All this coupled with what I began to see as facts, evidence and proof that god was a man-made construct. Faith too for that matter. Facts, evidence and proof that much better supported alternative conclusion, over the belief in a god.
More specifically with regard to this age old pesky issue about whether coincidence can or should be viewed as other than coincidence, there is no question that sometimes the coincidence can seem like TOO MUCH coincidence to be coincidence, but being the humans that we are, we're not good at recognizing all the countless occasions when what we hope or wish or pray for doesn't turn out in any way like what we would expect if a "hand of providence" were actually involved. We prefer to see all events in light of what we prefer to believe. Also how we seem to see only the good about those we fall in love with. Somehow "blind" to the bad. Again, human nature. How our mind and emotions work.
Case in point, I just finished reading a fascinating book self-published by a dear friend of our family who recently died. I picked up his book at his Celebration of Life. In it he describes about a dozen incredible coincidences or cases of good fortune that he questions as perhaps the result of "the hand of providence." Like once being late to catch a plane. Missed the flight. Later learned the plane crashed and all on board had died. Hard not to think perhaps the "hand of providence." Right? Certainly easy to do so in any case. Never mind the people who perished in the plane crash of course. Or their loved ones.
At the end of his book he confirms that despite all the amazing coincidences and/or cases of unbelievable good fortunate, he did not believe there was a god. In part, because he also recognized all the alternatively incomprehensible suffering he and his family had to endure. Tragedy that he similarly could not for any good reason attribute to a god.
On balance, it more logically seems to be the case that life tends to be an ongoing case of "good, bad and ugly" things happening to us that are quite varied and random in nature. One day we can be "on top of the world" and the next be diagnosed with a terminal disease. Everyone will be different in terms of how they interpret their "ups and downs." Needless to say, again, those who believe in a god will see all things through that lens. Those who don't will see otherwise.
Those in question do well to continue to question in my opinion, because the truth either way is not finally realized by assuming anything. It's good questions answered in proper objective fashion that reveals the truth about all things. A process that should never end in my opinion. As I'm sure any religious person would also argue no atheist should stop asking questions and/or seeking the truth.
No, I think he has a legit question. In any war you've got millions of people praying for their side to win and millions of people on the other side praying that they win. Hmmmm.
For all I know, the millions who were able to leave, ALL prayed to be able to do so. Then again, perhaps NONE of them prayed (which, wouldn't seem likely).
For all I know, the millions who were able to leave, ALL prayed to be able to do so. Then again, perhaps NONE of them prayed (which, wouldn't seem likely).
Good answer...
No one has a clue, because there is no way to know who is praying for what or how many, but it stands to reason that most people who are religious will pray that bad things won't happen to them. At times of serious stress, even the non-religious are inclined to pray. That God will intervene and save them from hardship. Desperation is not subject to reason or logic, and knows no bounds.
That said, we look at any natural disaster and what do we see? Say the earthquake in Turkey and Syria. Now an estimated over 40,000 people dead (or pick your war or disaster). No one knows what they were praying or hoping before they died, but I'm sure they had no want to die. What of the loved ones left behind however? How many prayed with all their heart that their loved ones would be pulled out alive rather than be found dead?
No one knows, but I'll bet my last atheist dollar the great majority prayed for their loved ones or are still praying. Many more thousands injured praying they'll recover from their injuries too. Survive and not loose their limbs or become incapable of taking care of themselves. Far too many by any measure who will not come out the way the prayers beg for.
How are all those numbers accounted for by the religious person? As usual it won't be something objectively reasonable. Instead it will be something like "god working in mysterious ways." I mean again, we all well know how this sort of thing goes...
No one has a clue, because there is no way to know who is praying for what or how many, but it stands to reason that most people who are religious will pray that bad things won't happen to them. At times of serious stress, even the non-religious are inclined to pray. That God will intervene and save them from hardship. Desperation is not subject to reason or logic, and knows no bounds.
That said, we look at any natural disaster and what do we see? Say the earthquake in Turkey and Syria. Now an estimated over 40,000 people dead (or pick your war or disaster). No one knows what they were praying or hoping before they died, but I'm sure they had no want to die. What of the loved ones left behind however? How many prayed with all their heart that their loved ones would be pulled out alive rather than be found dead?
No one knows, but I'll bet my last atheist dollar the great majority prayed for their loved ones or are still praying. Many more thousands injured praying they'll recover from their injuries too. Survive and not loose their limbs or become incapable of taking care of themselves. Far too many by any measure who will not come out the way the prayers beg for.
How are all those numbers accounted for by the religious person? As usual it won't be something objectively reasonable. Instead it will be something like "god working in mysterious ways." I mean again, we all well know how this sort of thing goes...
LOL! LearnMe, ya seem to give me these thought-provoking responses on days when I simply have less time to fashion a thoughtful response!
I really like your posts (this and the previous one), and I DO want to respond. Alas today...I'm pressed for time. Hopefully this thread won't get too long before I come back to it.
The thing is, if prayers really were answered to everyone's satisfaction then nobody would ever suffer, right? I don't think of prayer as something in order to get something else (excpet peace and/or not being alone). Nobody can look at, or at least know about an abused little child kneeling by her bed praying that Mommy doesn't come home high tonight with another new guy, and say that prayers are in order to get or change something *material* (not saying "material" in a negative way, I mean anything earthly...cure cancer, not be beaten...have food...get the girl...be rich...have their mother live a day longer...anything). There is just no way that's possible.
I wanted to say something else but I didn't want to keep editing my post...
I believe prayer helps people get their minds in a place to help others. I think we can best do that by connecting with God...or our highest selves, whatever your belief is.
People say (and I was always fond of saying in the past), "if God hears prayers then how are there so many starving children in the world?"
What if He hears those prayers and that's why so many people, and groups, and nations send in food?
It's always this "if God heard prayers and answered then things would be perfect." I'm not sure about that. I think things could be worse than they are in so many ways. So very, very, very, very much worse.
I say this as someone who has suffered terribly, in fact who was purposefully drowned as a preschooler for misbehaving...and worse. (Because death is not worse than other things that came later.) So I'm not being lighthearted and flippant.
I really do believe God wants to help, but he wants US to want to help. I think the way He hears prayers is by trying to help us open up to seeing solutions, and trying ot help us to open up to wanting to lift other people up. I don't think He can just start curing this, that and the other because He couldn't do for a few what he would then decide not to do for others. I mean if you had, say, six billion kids, LOL, and you only fed some of them because you liked those more...what would you be? Not a good person. And definitely not anybody holy.
Just my random thoughts. I don't have all the answers. And at this point in my life I finally feel like it's okay not to have all the answers. Maybe we here who question and discuss have a mission to discover, not teach. Just a thought.
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