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You are promulgating the band wagon fallacy. Fallacies have no substance. Don't use them unless you want to be categorized the same way.
"Numbers" (ad Populum) rules this world...always has, always will. Right, wrong, or otherwise...it will typically dominate with the ultra-mojo.
Theism has 'substance"...as much as anything, ever.
AA has "substance"...as a program to help people that are hurting.
Religion mocking type Atheism...they have names for the "substance" that is. Take a guess. And those that carry that out...same "substance".
She does not "bow down" to any higher power, and if you knew her, you would actually find that idea quite funny. Yes, for some, the "higher power" is a God or a religion, but that is not the concept for everyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by normstad
It is the most frequent comment I have heard from members of Al-Anon. Our experiences differ.
AA meetings run the gamut in this (and just about all other) respects. A dear friend of mine, who is not the least bit religious, has had success with AA for almost 40 years. It’s not really a heavy lift. Just disregard the first word of the Serenity Prayer, and it sounds like any old secular philosophy:
Quote:
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
AA meetings run the gamut in this (and just about all other) respects. A dear friend of mine, who is not the least bit religious, has had success with AA for almost 40 years. It’s not really a heavy lift. Just disregard the first word of the Serenity Prayer, and it sounds like any old secular philosophy:
AA meetings run the gamut in this (and just about all other) respects. A dear friend of mine, who is not the least bit religious, has had success with AA for almost 40 years. It’s not really a heavy lift. Just disregard the first word of the Serenity Prayer, and it sounds like any old secular philosophy:
Who are you asking to grant you the serenity, the courage, and the wisdom, if not God? What secular philosophy sounds like that?
Who are you asking to grant you the serenity, the courage, and the wisdom, if not God? What secular philosophy sounds like that?
One can "accept that which cannot be changed; courage to change that which can be changed, and wisdom to know the one from the other" without the intervention of the christian god, the elephant god, or any other imaginary being. One can accomplish those things by marshalling their strengths from within.
One can "accept that which cannot be changed; courage to change that which can be changed, and wisdom to know the one from the other" without the intervention of the christian god, the elephant god, or any other imaginary being. One can accomplish those things by marshalling their strengths from within.
What is this strength within? It it biological? Does it show in any device? Is it measurable? Does everyone have it, and in same amount? And how does one marshal it?
Great. That is what prayer is too for those who pray. Whatever method works for one to stay sober is positive. It is not helpful, and may be harmful, to make it an atheist problem.
Great. That is what prayer is too for those who pray. Whatever method works for one to stay sober is positive.
All I said was that 12-step programs are not exclusively for believers. I have no problem with anyone who treats the Serenity Prayer as an actual prayer. Why would I?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008
LIt is not helpful, and may be harmful, to make it an atheist problem.
I don’t know what that means.
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