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Apologies for smart response, it was too tempting.
Now, on the serious note.
And why exactly have you decided, that intelligence is complex?
There is notion of Atom. Not an atom, they teach you at school about. The Atom. The Atom is the smallest, indivisible unit, matter is made out of. the Atom is not known to science, as science keeps "peeling an onion" continuously unlayering another layer and then another layer and so on. When, eventually, if at all possible, science will get to the bottom, the core of everything, that will be atoms. The Atoms.
Reason I mention this is as follows. Atom is not complex. It can not be divided. So is Intelligence, or Consciousness. It is not complex, just like Atom. It is indivisible.
I am trying to think of analogy. Nothing, better than Love, comes to mind.
Love exists, can't deny that. People moved mountains, conquered countries or killed themselves for Love. But, can you divide Love? Put it on Petry dish? Under microscope? No, that's naive.
What you referring to as "complex" Consciousness, as intelligence is derivative to Consciousness, is same way. It is Consciousness. That's it. Indivisible, immeasurable, limitless, non-temporal, eternal, non-corporeal, non-physical.
Ergo, the premise of you line - Only the naive believe that complexity requires an intelligence behind it, although they can never explain how that intelligence is not complex - is off the wrong premise from its first step.
Of course, if that is your conviction, then we have idle conversation, as you stay with yours, I stay with mine.
I have posted a few comments most recently in this forum about the false premise...
More often than not it is the false premise that leads to so many of these faulty conclusions, and no doubt the real challenge for all of us is to distinguish what is a false premise from what is not. Right at the start. That challenge also leads to the common outcome you suggest, in which you go your way with yours and others go their way with theirs.
Apologies for smart response, it was too tempting.
Now, on the serious note.
And why exactly have you decided, that intelligence is complex?
There is notion of Atom. Not an atom, they teach you at school about. The Atom. The Atom is the smallest, indivisible unit, matter is made out of. the Atom is not known to science, as science keeps "peeling an onion" continuously unlayering another layer and then another layer and so on. When, eventually, if at all possible, science will get to the bottom, the core of everything, that will be atoms. The Atoms.
Reason I mention this is as follows. Atom is not complex. It can not be divided. So is Intelligence, or Consciousness. It is not complex, just like Atom. It is indivisible.
I am trying to think of analogy. Nothing, better than Love, comes to mind.
Love exists, can't deny that. People moved mountains, conquered countries or killed themselves for Love. But, can you divide Love? Put it on Petry dish? Under microscope? No, that's naive.
What you referring to as "complex" Consciousness, as intelligence is derivative to Consciousness, is same way. It is Consciousness. That's it. Indivisible, immeasurable, limitless, non-temporal, eternal, non-corporeal, non-physical.
Ergo, the premise of you line - Only the naive believe that complexity requires an intelligence behind it, although they can never explain how that intelligence is not complex - is off the wrong premise from its first step.
Of course, if that is your conviction, then we have idle conversation, as you stay with yours, I stay with mine.
Like CB's goal earlier, I am not trying to argue with your theories and I appreciate the effort you put to explain them. I can accept that the atom cannot be divided (which is a pretty neat thing to think about), yet, can an atom be pointed out - differentiated from something that is divisible? If yes, then to me, the atom is not limitless at least not in the sense that I understand limitless. It has a boundary.
Of course, these are just my thoughts and questions - my own quest to understand - with no responsibility on others to make me/help me understand.
I see my destiny as more what I imagine working for me as well. If that's another way to put what you are describing here...
As for an instrument, the want to play music is typically something people don't think too much or long about. I'm enjoying a book right now about how the members of the Rolling Stones got started at such a young age, with no formal training whatsoever. They just had to play music as a result of listening to the albums that "blew their mind" as youngsters. For most musicians, it either happens or it doesn't just like that. No real thinking involved. It's more about feeling...
Yes. That is how I see destiny.
We had a luthier in our family, whose instruments sold in the thousands. People often wondered why we didn't learn the craft or why more of us didn't play musical instruments. He had the same philosophy - that you have to have a feeling for it. I chose band as an elective one year in high school (or maybe it was middle school) and asked him to help me pick out an instrument. He took me to his friend's music store and told me to pick the one I can imagine playing. I picked the clarinet; it was a good choice. There was no pressure to pick the instruments he made.
Now, on the serious note.
And why exactly have you decided, that intelligence is complex?
Because every example of intelligence we have requires complex brains. If you want to argue for another type of intelligence that does not require a complex brain
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
There is notion of Atom. Not an atom, they teach you at school about. The Atom. The Atom is the smallest, indivisible unit, matter is made out of. the Atom is not known to science, as science keeps "peeling an onion" continuously unlayering another layer and then another layer and so on. When, eventually, if at all possible, science will get to the bottom, the core of everything, that will be atoms. The Atoms.
Reason I mention this is as follows. Atom is not complex. It can not be divided. So is Intelligence, or Consciousness. It is not complex, just like Atom. It is indivisible.
I am trying to think of analogy. Nothing, better than Love, comes to mind.
Love exists, can't deny that. People moved mountains, conquered countries or killed themselves for Love. But, can you divide Love? Put it on Petry dish? Under microscope? No, that's naive.
What you referring to as "complex" Consciousness, as intelligence is derivative to Consciousness, is same way. It is Consciousness. That's it. Indivisible, immeasurable, limitless, non-temporal, eternal, non-corporeal, non-physical.
That is like arguing one can not put a computer program, or a thought, or pain on a Petri dish, therefore Consciousness with a capital C.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
Ergo, the premise of you line - Only the naive believe that complexity requires an intelligence behind it, although they can never explain how that intelligence is not complex - is off the wrong premise from its first step.
Of course, if that is your conviction, then we have idle conversation, as you stay with yours, I stay with mine.
Because every example of intelligence we have requires complex brains. If you want to argue for another type of intelligence that does not require a complex brain
That is like arguing one can not put a computer program, or a thought, or pain on a Petri dish, therefore Consciousness with a capital C.
OK.
That's confusing brain and consciousness. Composite/complex brain means composite/complex Consciousness. Again, we are under different base lines.
Besides, let me ask you this. I agree, brain is complex organ. You believe, it is producing consciousness. OK. I'll work with this.
I can - and did - dissect brains before.
I'll ask you this though. will you, pretty please, provide me with sample of consciousness? Now, wow, wow - do not show me encephalograms. Show me consciousness. I'll be happy to dissect and investigate it.
In one of His discourses, OSHO mentions rose. Rose is beautiful. Scientists takes that rose, weighs it, measures it, dries it out and powders it, so it can place sample into chromatograph, under microscope and do other popular tests. He can describe down to the undoubtful value rose's chemical composition etc.
But one thing, he can not find, or replicate, is BEAUTY.
Neither can one replicate or investigate consciousness, by investigating brain. One can only make assumption that, certain brain emission responds to certain emotion or thought. But that's pretty much it.
Btw, your computer program analogy is not valid as, it is a digital media that, actually, CAN be investigated with physical means.
You are looking at consciousness from mechanistic physical perspective.And it is quite understood, as we all live in mechanistic, physical world. That's why we do not have our thinking paths crossing. No common ground.
Like CB's goal earlier, I am not trying to argue with your theories and I appreciate the effort you put to explain them. I can accept that the atom cannot be divided (which is a pretty neat thing to think about), yet, can an atom be pointed out - differentiated from something that is divisible? If yes, then to me, the atom is not limitless at least not in the sense that I understand limitless. It has a boundary.
Of course, these are just my thoughts and questions - my own quest to understand - with no responsibility on others to make me/help me understand.
See, now we are entering into the uncharted waters of the principles of existence of the physical world. To what I shall add, principles of existence of the non-physical world too. Then, inevitably, we enter same waters of eternal and the true dimensions. Not the dimensions, taught at school. As, without all that, it is not quite possible to consider topics of Atom or Consciousness.
If I shall say, Atom is an idea of a certain manifestation of a future to be physical unit, whatever it might be, under the design of Consciousness - will that help? If you were familiar with the "development from a point", you will understand, what I am saying. As in - geometric point, that has no dimension. Then, certainly, how can you, in the terms of physical, single out something, that has no dimension? Yet, CONCEPT of the geometric point, or dot, is very much so accepted.
BTW, your luthier. Good example of how re-existence works. When certain Selfs, through multiple existences, continue in the same trade, they become very good at it. Eventually, they reach that stage, when they are "natural born" whatever.
See, now we are entering into the uncharted waters of the principles of existence of the physical world. To what I shall add, principles of existence of the non-physical world too. Then, inevitably, we enter same waters of eternal and the true dimensions. Not the dimensions, taught at school. As, without all that, it is not quite possible to consider topics of Atom or Consciousness.
If I shall say, Atom is an idea of a certain manifestation of a future to be physical unit, whatever it might be, under the design of Consciousness - will that help? If you were familiar with the "development from a point", you will understand, what I am saying. As in - geometric point, that has no dimension. Then, certainly, how can you, in the terms of physical, single out something, that has no dimension? Yet, CONCEPT of the geometric point, or dot, is very much so accepted.
BTW, your luthier. Good example of how re-existence works. When certain Selfs, through multiple existences, continue in the same trade, they become very good at it. Eventually, they reach that stage, when they are "natural born" whatever.
See, now we are entering into the uncharted waters of the principles of existence of the physical world. To what I shall add, principles of existence of the non-physical world too. Then, inevitably, we enter same waters of eternal and the true dimensions. Not the dimensions, taught at school. As, without all that, it is not quite possible to consider topics of Atom or Consciousness.
If I shall say, Atom is an idea of a certain manifestation of a future to be physical unit, whatever it might be, under the design of Consciousness - will that help? If you were familiar with the "development from a point", you will understand, what I am saying. As in - geometric point, that has no dimension. Then, certainly, how can you, in the terms of physical, single out something, that has no dimension? Yet, CONCEPT of the geometric point, or dot, is very much so accepted.
BTW, your luthier. Good example of how re-existence works. When certain Selfs, through multiple existences, continue in the same trade, they become very good at it. Eventually, they reach that stage, when they are "natural born" whatever.
Intriguing response, ukrkoz. Thank you. When you say the design of consciousness, is this the thing that is limitless? And is it also what you refer to as "exteriorization of thought"?
See, now we are entering into the uncharted waters of the principles of existence of the physical world. To what I shall add, principles of existence of the non-physical world too. Then, inevitably, we enter same waters of eternal and the true dimensions. Not the dimensions, taught at school. As, without all that, it is not quite possible to consider topics of Atom or Consciousness.
If I shall say, Atom is an idea of a certain manifestation of a future to be physical unit, whatever it might be, under the design of Consciousness - will that help? If you were familiar with the "development from a point", you will understand, what I am saying. As in - geometric point, that has no dimension. Then, certainly, how can you, in the terms of physical, single out something, that has no dimension? Yet, CONCEPT of the geometric point, or dot, is very much so accepted.
BTW, your luthier. Good example of how re-existence works. When certain Selfs, through multiple existences, continue in the same trade, they become very good at it. Eventually, they reach that stage, when they are "natural born" whatever.
Intriguing response, ukrkoz. Thank you. When you say the design of consciousness, is this the thing that is limitless? And is it also what you refer to as "exteriorization of thought"?
ukr can respond regarding meaning of phrases in his post.
i will answer, too, with how i understand it
nothing appears in the physical unless it was first a thought or idea in the non-physical. Which caused it to appear in the physical.
Consciousness (which is non-physical) designs that which is physical.
Non-physical Consciousness precedes the physical. Non-physical Consciousness designs and brings into existence anything / everything which is physical. That is the process and how it works.
i defer to ukr to elaborate or correct or comment if that reflects accurately what his post is refering to
Quote:
See, now we are entering into the uncharted waters of the principles of existence of the physical world. To what I shall add, principles of existence of the non-physical world too. Then, inevitably, we enter same waters of eternal and the true dimensions. Not the dimensions, taught at school. As, without all that, it is not quite possible to consider topics of Atom or Consciousness.
If I shall say, Atom is an idea of a certain manifestation of a future to be physical unit, whatever it might be, under the design of Consciousness - will that help? If you were familiar with the "development from a point", you will understand, what I am saying. As in - geometric point, that has no dimension. Then, certainly, how can you, in the terms of physical, single out something, that has no dimension? Yet, CONCEPT of the geometric point, or dot, is very much so accepted.
BTW, your luthier. Good example of how re-existence works. When certain Selfs, through multiple existences, continue in the same trade, they become very good at it. Eventually, they reach that stage, when they are "natural born" whatever.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-09-2022 at 06:48 AM..
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