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Ukrkoz does not call karma destiny.
Destiny is result of karma, action, pretty much, act of living. As any living is virtually impossible without creating Destiny. And, as any conscious action is preceded by a thought of it, karma is, pretty much, act of thinking.
When one learns, how to live without creating Destiny, one is liberated. In other words, one learns how to think without creating thoughts. It still may take few existences to work out the "leftovers" or, it may be burnt out in flame.
I personally wouldn't relate negativity with spirituality even though we can have negative experiences when discussing the topic.
Spirituality should not be negative, my out of time hippy friend (he was born in 1980, like me) is a gentle person who happily uses his herbal knowledge to help others. He does not attack other people, nor does he pretend to be a guru or a sage. The only negative is that I am 1,88 meters tall with big hair, so I find I usually clean the dust from the dream catchers suspended from his ceiling.
But even in Daoism, the spiritual path that resonates with my world view, has negative aspects, from Zhuangzi often laughing at his friend Hui Shi, to the later Daoists mocking the rituals of the Han dynasty and later.
But Daoists agree with Aristotle, moderation is the key in everything, there must be a balance. For Daoists, that opposite is often provided by humor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02
Ukrkoz's post is pretty close to how I would view karma.
It reflects part of my world view, you sow, you reap. What you do has consequences, whether you deserve those consequences or not. So I would not use the word karma because not every one gets what they deserve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02
One of the things I accept is not having an idea fully fleshed out when I post here. I run the risk of others pointing out the downsides of my ideas and I am okay with that. The main reason for this is because this is normal interaction for most people. What might be unsettling is how they say it. Sometimes they have a negative tone and it is done on purpose. Other times, we perceive a more negative tone because when they respond to posters who we perceive to be their "friends", their posts are more carefully worded.
Often a negative tone is an indication the other person is not being honest. That is why it is important to see if what has been said is a rational argument, and not an assertion, excuse, or a simple dismissal. One can not have a honest two way discussion if the other person is not being honest with themselves.
Ukrkoz does not call karma destiny.
Destiny is result of karma, action, pretty much, act of living. As any living is virtually impossible without creating Destiny. And, as any conscious action is preceded by a thought of it, karma is, pretty much, act of thinking.
When one learns, how to live without creating Destiny, one is liberated. In other words, one learns how to think without creating thoughts. It still may take few existences to work out the "leftovers" or, it may be burnt out in flame.
You have a unique view. Karma-phala, fruit of karma, is what one reaps form the accumulation of karma which directs rebirth, parents, living conditions, access to spiritual growth. Any living, samsara, action, is impossible without creating karma, a noun. With mindful actions karma, noun, can be discharged and the next birth, destiny, can be modified.
Destiny is a direction and path that has been set by accumulated karma of previous birth, both good and bad karmas, noun.
It reflects part of my world view, you sow, you reap. What you do has consequences, whether you deserve those consequences or not. So I would not use the word karma because not every one gets what they deserve.
Often a negative tone is an indication the other person is not being honest. That is why it is important to see if what has been said is a rational argument, and not an assertion, excuse, or a simple dismissal. One can not have a honest two way discussion if the other person is not being honest with themselves.
The first paragraph I left is one of the issues I have found in discussions of karma. In a sense it is the sticking point when people discuss karma -- if karma is celestial justice, why is it so uneven? To compare it to our own justice system, crimes here in the U.S. fall under 'sentencing guidelines'. If you burn someone's house down, then your sentence should be within a certain range of penalties. Karma clearly doesn't work that way. One murderer may be caught and get the death penalty, while another murderer may suffer no consequences at all. We all know or at least witness despicable people who thrive. We all know or at least witness people who are nearly saintly in their following the Golden Rule who suffer terribly.
Unfortunately, the term karma has become a pop phenomenon in the West.
In my view, karma is more accurately described as tendencies. And this is reflected in several of Buddha's teachings...for example his advice about friends. Essentially, if you hang around with disreputable friends, you will likely get caught up in their intrigues and suffer consequences. If you hang around with noble people, you will likely get caught up in that nobleness and thrive. But it's no guarantee. Bad things happen to wonderful people. Wonderful things happen to bad people. It's sort of a question of odds.
That second paragraph of yours that I left...there can be many reasons for having a negative tone.
You have a unique view. Karma-phala, fruit of karma, is what one reaps form the accumulation of karma which directs rebirth, parents, living conditions, access to spiritual growth. Any living, samsara, action, is impossible without creating karma, a noun. With mindful actions karma, noun, can be discharged and the next birth, destiny, can be modified.
Destiny is a direction and path that has been set by accumulated karma of previous birth, both good and bad karmas, noun.
By no means have you contradicted anything I said. Matter of fact, you do confirm it. If for a moment you relieve your mind from identifying karma as destiny and, assume karma, noun, “action, activity†- that’s verbatim what I said.
And it is not my view and it is not unique. Let’s say, I had enlightening explanation of karma about a month ago. Almost posted it here but, opportunity to express it was provided by you.
To what I am thankful.
I just deleted multiple posts by multiple posters that were off-topic and designed to inflame. The tone for this can be seen to have been set by the last paragraph of the first post; however, that paragraph can stand alone if everyone just resists the instinct to react by thinking it's about them, so I'm leaving it in
It's a good topic. Don't make me close it by taking it off into yet another bickering session, and that goes for everybody.
Spirituality should not be negative, my out of time hippy friend (he was born in 1980, like me) is a gentle person who happily uses his herbal knowledge to help others. He does not attack other people, nor does he pretend to be a guru or a sage. The only negative is that I am 1,88 meters tall with big hair, so I find I usually clean the dust from the dream catchers suspended from his ceiling.
But even in Daoism, the spiritual path that resonates with my world view, has negative aspects, from Zhuangzi often laughing at his friend Hui Shi, to the later Daoists mocking the rituals of the Han dynasty and later.
But Daoists agree with Aristotle, moderation is the key in everything, there must be a balance. For Daoists, that opposite is often provided by humor.
It reflects part of my world view, you sow, you reap. What you do has consequences, whether you deserve those consequences or not. So I would not use the word karma because not every one gets what they deserve.
Often a negative tone is an indication the other person is not being honest. That is why it is important to see if what has been said is a rational argument, and not an assertion, excuse, or a simple dismissal. One can not have a honest two way discussion if the other person is not being honest with themselves.
You're young, Harry.
You mention interesting people, especially Hui Shi. I did not pick up on karma meaning that people get what they deserve from Ukrkoz's post, but maybe you are just expanding on your own worldview and separating it from how others may be using it, especially as an acknowledgment of retribution. But if karma is viewed in this way, then reaching one's positive destiny through karma is possible if reincarnation exists and if it exists for the purpose of reaching one's destiny. (How that may have started is not my destiny to know.)
I support humor but like anything else - time and place and intention. The humor I experienced as a child could be described similarly to the behavior I mentioned earlier. Towards me, it felt careless. Towards others, especially "friends", it felt careful. Reaction to body language was my evidence. If I didn't laugh, it continued. If the other person didn't laugh, it stopped. A lot of effort was put into figuring out this discrepancy and I got a lot of heat for it and was told in various ways "you sow, you reap." They say it is easier to change yourself than other people. I say it is easier to drop your current associations than to change yourself. So I stopped "sowing", and did not allow a history to continue to develop with certain people. I think what I have now is an idea of when to give sunlight, water, and direction which has allowed me to reconnect with certain people, who did not think they would ever get old.
If dishonesty is suspect, I point it out. Pointing out something that another person didn't want to be pointed out will probably carry a negative feeling. If they were not seeking that kind of service, this negative feeling cannot be prevented.
You mention interesting people, especially Hui Shi. I did not pick up on karma meaning that people get what they deserve from Ukrkoz's post, but maybe you are just expanding on your own worldview and separating it from how others may be using it, especially as an acknowledgment of retribution. But if karma is viewed in this way, then reaching one's positive destiny through karma is possible if reincarnation exists and if it exists for the purpose of reaching one's destiny. (How that may have started is not my destiny to know.)
I support humor but like anything else - time and place and intention. The humor I experienced as a child could be described similarly to the behavior I mentioned earlier. Towards me, it felt careless. Towards others, especially "friends", it felt careful. Reaction to body language was my evidence. If I didn't laugh, it continued. If the other person didn't laugh, it stopped. A lot of effort was put into figuring out this discrepancy and I got a lot of heat for it and was told in various ways "you sow, you reap." They say it is easier to change yourself than other people. I say it is easier to drop your current associations than to change yourself. So I stopped "sowing", and did not allow a history to continue to develop with certain people. I think what I have now is an idea of when to give sunlight, water, and direction which has allowed me to reconnect with certain people, who did not think they would ever get old.
If dishonesty is suspect, I point it out. Pointing out something that another person didn't want to be pointed out will probably carry a negative feeling. If they were not seeking that kind of service, this negative feeling cannot be prevented.
I have a difficult time believe in 'destiny'. I'm more the 'life is what you make it' type.
You're young, Harry.
et
I did not pick up on karma meaning that people gwhat they deserve from Ukrkoz's post, but maybe you are just expanding on your own worldview and separating it from how others may be using it, especially as an acknowledgment of retribution
My OA at work always tells patients, that I am very literal. I am. I learned through practice to be very careful with the words choice as patients hear what they want to hear, cling to words and, in 20 minutes after they left the office, least to say - 2 days, it is all misinterpreted to their understanding.
So I am somehow disagreeing, as stickler, with "get what they deserve" and "retribution". That starts smelling of judgement and punishment, and there is none. Though, yes, in lay terms, it might be described as such.
From another perspective, it is simply learning process. Education and Self-education. There is no one to judge. No mean forces, imposing punishment upon you or, dragging you astray. There is only you and your thoughts, your thinking. There is no god, who will take your mistakes upon himself to bring you heaven. Thetre is no hell, where you pay for what someone else established as wrongdoings. There is no devil, trying to capture your soul.
There is only you, a dropout from the eternal order of progression, who made a mistake, willingly and after warning, and ended here, on the physical plane of the physical world, called universe and our earth. The only goal of this is not punishment, it is return. Return through learning your OWN mistakes and retraining yourself so that you are, simply, not capable of making them again. And, just as any learning, it may be painful. But, painful lessons tend to take faster effect. Once burnt, will blow on cold.
So yeh, in a sense, people get what they deserve but, more, it is people get what they chose. To me, there is moral difference between those two statements. Basic free will. Yes, there is a permanent teacher, assigned to each and one "soul" - its voice of conscience. But who listens to it, really... Though, the principle of progression is very simple, much simpler, than the 8fold path, for example. Live your life moment by moment, listening to your voice of conscience.
Last edited by mensaguy; 05-06-2022 at 09:23 AM..
Reason: Fixed quote tag
You're young, Harry.
et
I did not pick up on karma meaning that people gwhat they deserve from Ukrkoz's post, but maybe you are just expanding on your own worldview and separating it from how others may be using it, especially as an acknowledgment of retribution
My OA at work always tells patients, that I am very literal. I am. I learned through practice to be very careful with the words choice as patients hear what they want to hear, cling to words and, in 20 minutes after they left the office, least to say - 2 days, it is all misinterpreted to their understanding.
So I am somehow disagreeing, as stickler, with "get what they deserve" and "retribution". That starts smelling of judgement and punishment, and there is none. Though, yes, in lay terms, it might be described as such.
From another perspective, it is simply learning process. Education and Self-education. There is no one to judge. No mean forces, imposing punishment upon you or, dragging you astray. There is only you and your thoughts, your thinking. There is no god, who will take your mistakes upon himself to bring you heaven. Thetre is no hell, where you pay for what someone else established as wrongdoings. There is no devil, trying to capture your soul.
There is only you, a dropout from the eternal order of progression, who made a mistake, willingly and after warning, and ended here, on the physical plane of the physical world, called universe and our earth. The only goal of this is not punishment, it is return. Return through learning your OWN mistakes and retraining yourself so that you are, simply, not capable of making them again. And, just as any learning, it may be painful. But, painful lessons tend to take faster effect. Once burnt, will blow on cold.
So yeh, in a sense, people get what they deserve but, more, it is people get what they chose. To me, there is moral difference between those two statements. Basic free will. Yes, there is a permanent teacher, assigned to each and one "soul" - its voice of conscience. But who listens to it, really... Though, the principle of progression is very simple, much simpler, than the 8fold path, for example. Live your life moment by moment, listening to your voice of conscience.
Good one, Ukrkoz . Dhanyavad.
Last edited by mensaguy; 05-06-2022 at 09:23 AM..
Reason: Fixed quote
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