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You're young, Harry.
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I did not pick up on karma meaning that people gwhat they deserve from Ukrkoz's post, but maybe you are just expanding on your own worldview and separating it from how others may be using it, especially as an acknowledgment of retribution
My OA at work always tells patients, that I am very literal. I am. I learned through practice to be very careful with the words choice as patients hear what they want to hear, cling to words and, in 20 minutes after they left the office, least to say - 2 days, it is all misinterpreted to their understanding.
So I am somehow disagreeing, as stickler, with "get what they deserve" and "retribution". That starts smelling of judgement and punishment, and there is none. Though, yes, in lay terms, it might be described as such.
From another perspective, it is simply learning process. Education and Self-education. There is no one to judge. No mean forces, imposing punishment upon you or, dragging you astray. There is only you and your thoughts, your thinking. There is no god, who will take your mistakes upon himself to bring you heaven. Thetre is no hell, where you pay for what someone else established as wrongdoings. There is no devil, trying to capture your soul.
There is only you, a dropout from the eternal order of progression, who made a mistake, willingly and after warning, and ended here, on the physical plane of the physical world, called universe and our earth. The only goal of this is not punishment, it is return. Return through learning your OWN mistakes and retraining yourself so that you are, simply, not capable of making them again. And, just as any learning, it may be painful. But, painful lessons tend to take faster effect. Once burnt, will blow on cold.
So yeh, in a sense, people get what they deserve but, more, it is people get what they chose. To me, there is moral difference between those two statements. Basic free will. Yes, there is a permanent teacher, assigned to each and one "soul" - its voice of conscience. But who listens to it, really... Though, the principle of progression is very simple, much simpler, than the 8fold path, for example. Live your life moment by moment, listening to your voice of conscience.
An interesting post.
The "voice of conscience" concerns me, however.
Last edited by mensaguy; 05-06-2022 at 09:24 AM..
Reason: Fixed quote
There are a few misunderstanding by American Buddhists around here about the concept of karma and rebirth. I say rebirth because that is closer to what it means in Hinduism, which is the primary religion that has this concept of the cosmic force of karma that attaches to the jiva, the sentient being, and is the cause of the birth and death cycle of samsara, the world of names and forms, pain and suffering.
Karma is not a punishment, it is what we endure as a result of our action. Actions in particular that are committed with intention, say Madoff, who took money from people on promise of returns and made off with it, and lied, all for greed. That will accrue one kind of karma, and yes there are varieties of karma. In his next birth he may get cheated by someone and lose all his money. That would be his karma paying dividends.
May be you killed an ant by stepping on it without knowing. That too is karma, but does not carry much weight.
You stop your car in the rain, get down, and give a 10 dollar bill to a homeless person taking shelter. That is also karma. That will cancel your bad karma. So it is double entry book keeping here. If you are Buddha, you will have no karma as he had totally renounced the world, all his attachments, desires and cravings.
Now. If you open CD and read a post that is a nuisance directed at you, you react in turn. that bad bad feeling this causes in you? is due to bad karma, may be the ant you stepped on. So now you have to endures this pesky post, that which the Cosmos delivered to you: a pest and his pesty post.
Reading your OP brought back memories of our amazing trip to Thailand, and how we encountered the beliefs there with respect to "making merit."
"The official religion in Thailand is Theravada Buddhism, practiced by more than 95% of the population and by many who reside in Laos, Myanmar, and Cambodia."
"Buddhism is a key component to the identities of many Thais. Many will give daily offerings to things like spirit houses. Others will sporadically feed the many soi (street) dogs to make merit. By making and gaining merit, many Thais believe they will live longer and happier lives. Some people will also wear Buddhist amulets in order to protect themselves."
I appreciate the reminder, because those memories are some of my favorites, and oh how I would love to make another trip to Thailand! Got to love their religion and culture in many of these ways...
You are presuming that it's some sort of cosmic justice system. I see it more as cause and effect. And I didn't get that from "Western Buddhism".
Let me make something clear. I have never been to an 'American Buddhist temple'. Not even once. My temple experiences have all been at Thai Theravada temples*. Even the 3 temples in America that I have been to are run by Thai Theravada monks and Thai Theravada abbots, and are directly connected to specific Thai temples in Thailand. They serve the Thai community that live here; 95% or more of their lay people are Thais, with an occasional American thrown into the mix. Similarly, the vast majority of books, pamphlets, or other publications I have read were written by Thai monks, often clumsily translated, but by Theravadan Thais.
Personally, I look at 'Western Buddhism' as 'pop Buddhism'. Which is fine. If one gets good stuff from pop Buddhism, so be it. But I'm not into it.
What I do notice is that you tend to lump all of Buddhism together. A Theravadan Thai temple is totally different than a Zen Buddhist temple in Japan...than a Mahayana Buddhist temple in Vietnam, than a Buddhist temple in Tibet. To learn how diverse the Buddhist world is, you might want to review https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schools_of_Buddhism
* A few of my students who were Buddhist did invite me to their temples. They were Burmese and the temples were run by Burmese monks and abbots, not Americans. And their laity were almost entirely Burmese and other Asian. Not Americans.
So go ahead and attach any label you wish on me, which is just one more example of how wrong you often are.
I grew up in the town where the largest Buddhist temple was built, and I've been there many times. Most often when visiting my parents who continued to live in that town for many years after I left home. This one...
I haven't been there since my father passed away and we moved my mother to the wine country, so it's been awhile since I was last there, but I always enjoyed spending time there and would no doubt enjoy spending time there again if I get another chance.
Closer to my home now, however, we've also got the Land of Medicine Buddha and the Eight Verses Trail not too far from us.
My wife and I have enjoyed time there a few times as well. Unfortunately closed during the pandemic, I'll have to look into whether they have opened back up to the public again. In both cases, these places were open, free to the public under normal circumstances and very much worth the visit far as I've always been concerned.
Reading your OP brought back memories of our amazing trip to Thailand, and how we encountered the beliefs there with respect to "making merit."
"The official religion in Thailand is Theravada Buddhism, practiced by more than 95% of the population and by many who reside in Laos, Myanmar, and Cambodia."
"Buddhism is a key component to the identities of many Thais. Many will give daily offerings to things like spirit houses. Others will sporadically feed the many soi (street) dogs to make merit. By making and gaining merit, many Thais believe they will live longer and happier lives. Some people will also wear Buddhist amulets in order to protect themselves."
I appreciate the reminder, because those memories are some of my favorites, and oh how I would love to make another trip to Thailand! Got to love their religion and culture in many of these ways...
I have a difficult time believe in 'destiny'. I'm more the 'life is what you make it' type.
I don't believe in it in the sense that somebody has a destination for me. But I may say something like "I can picture myself doing that." And it gets done. One friend has been trying to convince me to buy an instrument; I have been to the instrument stores quite a few times. So far, I can't picture myself playing it so it is not in my destiny as far as I can tell even if he can picture me playing it.
So it is not a matter of whether I have an easy time believing something or not. I either picture it or I don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
My OA at work always tells patients, that I am very literal. I am. I learned through practice to be very careful with the words choice as patients hear what they want to hear, cling to words and, in 20 minutes after they left the office, least to say - 2 days, it is all misinterpreted to their understanding.
So I am somehow disagreeing, as stickler, with "get what they deserve" and "retribution". That starts smelling of judgement and punishment, and there is none. Though, yes, in lay terms, it might be described as such.
From another perspective, it is simply learning process. Education and Self-education. There is no one to judge. No mean forces, imposing punishment upon you or, dragging you astray. There is only you and your thoughts, your thinking. There is no god, who will take your mistakes upon himself to bring you heaven. Thetre is no hell, where you pay for what someone else established as wrongdoings. There is no devil, trying to capture your soul.
There is only you, a dropout from the eternal order of progression, who made a mistake, willingly and after warning, and ended here, on the physical plane of the physical world, called universe and our earth. The only goal of this is not punishment, it is return. Return through learning your OWN mistakes and retraining yourself so that you are, simply, not capable of making them again. And, just as any learning, it may be painful. But, painful lessons tend to take faster effect. Once burnt, will blow on cold.
So yeh, in a sense, people get what they deserve but, more, it is people get what they chose. To me, there is moral difference between those two statements. Basic free will. Yes, there is a permanent teacher, assigned to each and one "soul" - its voice of conscience. But who listens to it, really... Though, the principle of progression is very simple, much simpler, than the 8fold path, for example. Live your life moment by moment, listening to your voice of conscience.
Destiny is exactly as it was said - life, as one made it.
There’s only one catch to it.
As one made it through many previous existences.
Destiny can’t be looked at as a short term one life situation though, some events do happen very fast.
Reason being, for educational experience to occur in one’s life, there has to be a very complex alignment of various factors as, it involves physical and social conditions to be properly aligned and arranged and results should not adversely affect anyone else uninvolved.
One may design his “instant life” based on his efforts but, ONLY within the parameters of his destiny.
Destiny is exactly as it was said - life, as one made it.
There’s only one catch to it.
As one made it through many previous existences.
Destiny can’t be looked at as a short term one life situation though, some events do happen very fast.
Reason being, for educational experience to occur in one’s life, there has to be a very complex alignment of various factors as, it involves physical and social conditions to be properly aligned and arranged and results should not adversely affect anyone else uninvolved.
One may design his “instant life” based on his efforts but, ONLY within the parameters of his destiny.
Yes. From what I understand of your view of destiny, I cannot see it happening any other way except through the way you describe it.
Destiny is exactly as it was said - life, as one made it.
There’s only one catch to it.
As one made it through many previous existences.
Destiny can’t be looked at as a short term one life situation though, some events do happen very fast.
Reason being, for educational experience to occur in one’s life, there has to be a very complex alignment of various factors as, it involves physical and social conditions to be properly aligned and arranged and results should not adversely affect anyone else uninvolved.
One may design his “instant life” based on his efforts but, ONLY within the parameters of his destiny.
When we observe the way the universe functions, it is evident there is an intelligence in the way destiny and karma functions as well.
Good post, Ukrkoz.
Yes. From what I understand of your view of destiny, I cannot see it happening any other way except through the way you describe it.
This is the law: Every thing existing on the physical plane is an exteriorization of thought, which must be balanced through the one who issued the thought, and in accordance with that one’s responsibility,at the conjunction of time, condition, and place.
H.W. Percival.
And that is how Destiny is created and followed. There is no one to blame, no one to ask for help, no one else to save YOU, but YOU. YOU are the only one in charge of your Destiny.
When we observe the way the universe functions, it is evident there is an intelligence in the way destiny and karma functions as well.
Good post, Ukrkoz.
Care to elaborate? As, the way I read it, you are presuming a divine intervention into the process of karma>Destiny. "there is an intelligence IN"? This reads as if there is some sort of an outside guiding force for the process. Is that what you mean?
If yes, there is none. A thought is conceived by mind and, if not discarded by that mind, is entertained by it and, eventually, let out through seven opening in the skull, usually, through frontal cavities or nasal cavities. Therafter, thought, marked with that particular mind stamp, stays in the form plane of the physical world, waiting for its exteriorization, or manifestation, into the physical plane, in form of some event that will directly influence that mind/Self.
Each Self, through its existences, becomes a comet, with a tail of unrealized thoughts, following it.
That is Destiny.
This is why discarding of karma with "good deeds" is not possible as, in the process, one simply creates more karmaic Destiny.
But no, there is no "judge" involved into the way of karma>destiny. Free will. The only guidance is that Self's voice of conscience, which is voice of the Rightness and Reason, gently warning Self on moral and ethical intentions. But that's it.
One is always blacksmithing its Destiny as he wishes.
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