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There are all sorts of people "created with" a desire for bad things...like alcoholic tendencies. Or pedophiles that crave sex with children. Is that ok, too?
An alcoholic will never be able to deal with their alcoholism if they cannot admit their predisposition. If they cannot come to grips with the fact that they are biologically or socially predisposed to it, and that they are not evil, shameful, or monstrous because of their desire to drink, then they can begin to learn to heal from it, and to make good conscious choices. To tell them that if they were good believers they just wouldn't be tempted, they wouldn't struggle, and they cannot ever admit that they have this issue is just to drive it deeper, and make it worse.
In the same way, if pedophelia stems from a biological condition, there is nothing to be gained from demonizing the desire. It should be acknowledged so that they can learn to deal with it and not harm others. If you use shame and fear to make them bottle it up, not seek help and never discuss it, eventually it will explode.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
I like women a lot. Am I excused from the bounds of monogamy because of that? Or am I to hold to my marital vows? Suppose a pedophile likes children....is he/she excused from the behavior simply because they think they were born that way? Or do we expect people to control their urges?
Now you are just ignoring everything I wrote, because you can't let go of your dogma long enough to think about the issue! I never said that you should condone or sanction homosexual behavior. I personally think you should get over it, but I realize that your religion does not allow that. My point was simply that Christianity does not demonize gossips, liars, drunkards or even adulterers. These people are allowed to repent of their sins and acknowledge their desires and temptations, while striving to do right. Why can you not allow homosexuals the same courtesy? Even if you believe homosexual acts are wrong, why can you you not acknowledge the fact that sexual orientation appear to be rooted in biology. These people cannot choose in what ways they are tempted, only how they respond. Why is the fact they they lust after the same sex worse than you lusting after the opposite? Why not acknowledge that they are in fact gay, that they are born that way, that God loves them regardless, and that becasue of that He has called them to a life of celibacy?
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Originally Posted by Vizio
I'm sorry. God made people male and female. He has stated that burning with a desire for someone of the same gender is wrong. God did not make an "orientation" that differs from gender any more than he created a pedophile.
Why are you so sure God did not make the pedophile? Again, if these things are rooted in biology, then they are what they are. The only choice people can make is how to deal with these desires. Besides, if God can force Pharaoh to sin, and predestine people to hell, I don't know why you would say he can't predestine people for pedophelia or homosexuality.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
Why not? Shame is a gift from God. It keeps us from doing things that we know are wrong.
No, it makes us hide wrong from others to avoid being ostracized, to maintain our respect in our community and family. It turns us into liars who cannot admit there is a problem and will not seek help. This is endemic in churches of every stripe, and is a huge problem. You cannot change what you cannot admit.
If your goal it to beat homosexuals back into the closet, ot to force them to sever ties with family and friends because they might "contaminate" you, then you are going about it the right way. If you want to help them accept themselves for who they are becasue Christ accepts them, and choose to walk in a newness of life according to the dictates of your religion, you are going about it in a completely wrong headed way. You certainly seem to have a very harsh way of loving the sinner and hating the sin...
An alcoholic will never be able to deal with their alcoholism if they cannot admit their predisposition. If they cannot come to grips with the fact that they are biologically or socially predisposed to it, and that they are not evil, shameful, or monstrous because of their desire to drink, then they can begin to learn to heal from it, and to make good conscious choices. To tell them that if they were good believers they just wouldn't be tempted, they wouldn't struggle, and they cannot ever admit that they have this issue is just to drive it deeper, and make it worse.
In the same way, if pedophelia stems from a biological condition, there is nothing to be gained from demonizing the desire. It should be acknowledged so that they can learn to deal with it and not harm others. If you use shame and fear to make them bottle it up, not seek help and never discuss it, eventually it will explode.
Now you are just ignoring everything I wrote, because you can't let go of your dogma long enough to think about the issue! I never said that you should condone or sanction homosexual behavior. I personally think you should get over it, but I realize that your religion does not allow that. My point was simply that Christianity does not demonize gossips, liars, drunkards or even adulterers.
Demonize? I don't demonize anyone. But I do tell my congregants that those things are wrong. You are correct though, in that they are often overlooked.
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These people are allowed to repent of their sins and acknowledge their desires and temptations, while striving to do right. Why can you not allow homosexuals the same courtesy?
I do. A person doesn't have to engage in homosexual activity. We are human beings that can control our desires.
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Even if you believe homosexual acts are wrong, why can you you not acknowledge the fact that sexual orientation appear to be rooted in biology. These people cannot choose in what ways they are tempted, only how they respond. Why is the fact they they lust after the same sex worse than you lusting after the opposite? Why not acknowledge that they are in fact gay, that they are born that way, that God loves them regardless, and that becasue of that He has called them to a life of celibacy?
Homosexual attraction is not something God ordains. If they are born with any kind of desire, so be it...but they are not excused for the behavior. The behavior, and the continued focus desire for it is what is sinful.
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Why are you so sure God did not make the pedophile? Again, if these things are rooted in biology, then they are what they are. The only choice people can make is how to deal with these desires. Besides, if God can force Pharaoh to sin, and predestine people to hell, I don't know why you would say he can't predestine people for pedophelia or homosexuality.
Because God is not the author of evil. He doesn't predestine anyone to sin. He did harden Pharaoh's heart--but he did not ordain sin.
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No, it makes us hide wrong from others to avoid being ostracized, to maintain our respect in our community and family. It turns us into liars who cannot admit there is a problem and will not seek help. This is endemic in churches of every stripe, and is a huge problem. You cannot change what you cannot admit.
If your goal it to beat homosexuals back into the closet, ot to force them to sever ties with family and friends because they might "contaminate" you, then you are going about it the right way. If you want to help them accept themselves for who they are becasue Christ accepts them, and choose to walk in a newness of life according to the dictates of your religion, you are going about it in a completely wrong headed way. You certainly seem to have a very harsh way of loving the sinner and hating the sin...
-NoCapo
by telling them they are human beings and are not subject to the carnal desires they have in them? Do you treat adulterers the same way?
No one chooses to be hetereosexual. Neither are we born that way. The human race is hetereosexual by default. I don't understand how people who claim to be lovers of science can be so ignorant of basic human biology.
No one chooses to be hetereosexual. Neither are we born that way. The human race is hetereosexual by default. I don't understand how people who claim to be lovers of science can be so ignorant of basic human biology.
Please take a peek at the link I put in a previous post to Vizio. There is quite a bit of evidence that there are physiological differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals. Many of these differences appear to be formed either from genetics, or while in the womb. This does not negate the choice of behavior, but from the standpoint of desire, it does appear that in many cases, they are born that way.
Demonize? I don't demonize anyone. But I do tell my congregants that those things are wrong. You are correct though, in that they are often overlooked.
I can't speak for your behavior from the pulpit, but here on an anonymous message board you do come across as being very quick to demonize. You refuse to admit that homosexuality has anything to do with biology, you repeatedly conflate desire and action, and you categorize it a as deviant, abnormal, etc...
In general evangelical Christianity is very quick to act against homosexuals. I have for instance seen a gay man have an invitation to sing at a church very quickly rescinded. I have never seen someone get asked not to be a part of a church function because they were a gossip, or because they were proud, or because they lusted after women. There is a much greater stigma and condemnation attached to these desires than others, and for representatives of a God who condemns all sin equally it is a black mark against the church that they cannot get over it. Like I said, I don't know anything about you except from an internet message board where you may react more stridently than you do in real life, but the attitudes here are not helpful in trying to get homosexuals to make the choices you want them to make.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
A person doesn't have to engage in homosexual activity. We are human beings that can control our desires.
Homosexual attraction is not something God ordains. If they are born with any kind of desire, so be it...but they are not excused for the behavior. The behavior, and the continued focus desire for it is what is sinful.
by telling them they are human beings and are not subject to the carnal desires they have in them? Do you treat adulterers the same way?
In this we agree, but I think the key you and most Christians are missing is that there is a distinction that should be recognized between homosexuality, and homo sex. A homosexual man desires other men. He is still homosexual even if he is a virgin, even if he has been entirely celibate. This is quite likely rooted in biology, and trying to "fix" him is just asking him to live a lie in the name of God. Why can the church not recognize that he is a homosexual man, admit that he is who he is, and move on to helping him choose the appropriate behavior for a godly gay man in that religion, celibacy?
It seems to me that the church should stop trying to fix homosexuality, and worry about the sexual behavior, which is what you seem to be saying in the first place. You don't ask heterosexuals to rid themselves of all desire and attraction, but they are supposed to be in control of those desires and make correct choices. Why not extend the same grace to homosexuals? Allow them to identify as who they are without condemnation, so that you can help them make the choices you believe are right. Labelling an aspect of themselves that they cannot control and cannot fix as evil, as deviant, as not ordained of God is brutal and does nothing to help reconcile them to God.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
Because God is not the author of evil. He doesn't predestine anyone to sin. He did harden Pharaoh's heart--but he did not ordain sin.
This is a very debatable point. Pharaoh was trying to repent, to turn to God and God supernaturally intervened and essentially mind controlled him into sinning, just so that God could justifiably punish him more. It is hard to make the case that God did not author Pharaohs sin in this case. But regardless it is only a side tangent...
God did author sexual desire. Evidently he formed even "deviant" behavior into us at a biological level. He also formed us with a lot of other desires and temptations, and according to your faith, gave us lots of rules and guidelines about how to appropriately deal with them. My point is that generally only sexual desires and temptations (and only certain of those) are condemned as sins in and of themselves. I think this is wrongheaded. Homosexual attraction and desire is as natural and uncontrollable as heterosexual desire and shouldn't be stigmatized by treating the orientation the same as the act. If you are going to do that, then you should in fairness make the assumption that all heterosexuals are also guilty of sexual sin just by virtue of being straight.
In short, I think it would be wise of Christianity to separate homosexual orientation from the sexual acts. Condemn the acts if you must, but condemning the desire is counterproductive to your goal of bringing all men to Christ.
(Is this where I chime in with 'strong enough for a man. but made for a woman' jokes? )
Seriously, though, if you were 'created for a woman', then it's not a choice. It's the nature of your 'design'. You are not attracted to men, and you can't change that.
Which means that you acknowledge that homosexuality is not a 'choice', either, else we're looking at two different 'creations'.
Logic is fun, folks.
There is no point in applying logic where nothing reasonable is willing to hear it. It's like trying to reason with a toddler throwing a temper tantrum.
There are all sorts of people "created with" a desire for bad things...like alcoholic tendencies. Or pedophiles that crave sex with children. Is that ok, too?
I like women a lot. Am I excused from the bounds of monogamy because of that? Or am I to hold to my marital vows? Suppose a pedophile likes children....is he/she excused from the behavior simply because they think they were born that way? Or do we expect people to control their urges?
I'm sorry. God made people male and female. He has stated that burning with a desire for someone of the same gender is wrong. God did not make an "orientation" that differs from gender any more than he created a pedophile.
Why not? Shame is a gift from God. It keeps us from doing things that we know are wrong.
Where did He say that? Some people interpret some Biblical passages to say that homosexual SEX a prohibited, but where does it say that DESIRE is wrong?
There are all sorts of people "created with" a desire for bad things...like alcoholic tendencies. Or pedophiles that crave sex with children. Is that ok, too?
I like women a lot. Am I excused from the bounds of monogamy because of that? Or am I to hold to my marital vows? Suppose a pedophile likes children....is he/she excused from the behavior simply because they think they were born that way? Or do we expect people to control their urges?
I'm sorry. God made people male and female. He has stated that burning with a desire for someone of the same gender is wrong. God did not make an "orientation" that differs from gender any more than he created a pedophile.
Why not? Shame is a gift from God. It keeps us from doing things that we know are wrong.
I'm sorry you choose to remain ignorant about homosexuality and prefer to vilify people you know nothing about.
You've also chosen to ignore the fact that intersexed people exist as well.
Blind faith and wilful ignorance creates blind prejudice. Sad.
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