God and gays (translation, America, church, priests)
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So gay people are not suppoed to have sex? And gay women don't have intercourse so they arn't sinning when they have sex?
It's what the Bible says. I am not going to debate it. Lesbians are a bit more of a mystery because the Bible has very little to say about lesbianism. There are 10 gay men for every lesbian so homosexuality is found predominantly in males. Maybe it has something to do with cultural norms for women as its not taboo for women to show physical affection for each other like it is men. As for sex, straight people have the same restriction by the Bible outside the marriage bed and there is generally no accusation of bigotry in proclaiming that.
God is the ultimate judge but as a Christian I have to take the scriptures for what they say, even if popular culture says otherwise.
It's what the Bible says. I am not going to debate it. Lesbians are a bit more of a mystery because the Bible has very little to say about lesbianism. There are 10 gay men for every lesbian so homosexuality is found predominantly in males. Maybe it has something to do with cultural norms for women its not taboo for women to show physical affection for each other like it is men. As for sex, straight people have the same restriction by the Bible outside the marriage bed and there is generally no accusation of bigotry in proclaiming that.
God is the ultimate judge but as a Christian I have to take the scriptures for what they say, even if popular culture says otherwise.
So God is OK then women having sex together but not men.. Sounds like a guy to me.
So God is OK then women having sex together but not men.. Sounds like a guy to me.
It's not what I said, its what the Bible says. I wish it were different because its so culturally unacceptable today to believe anal sex between men is sinful, but I cannot reconcile it with my Christian faith.
It's impossible to have a discussion about this without your side resorting to sarcasm and stereotypes. Are you a Christian? If not, why does it matter to you what the Bible says on this issue?
It's not what I said, its what the Bible says. I wish it were different because its so culturally unacceptable today to believe anal sex between men is sinful, but I cannot reconcile it with my Christian faith.
It's impossible to have a discussion about this without your side resorting to sarcasm and stereotypes. Are you a Christian? If not, why does it matter to you what the Bible says on this issue?
It matters because Christians try to force others to follow their beliefs.
You basically have a situation here where God says sodomy is sinful. No reason, just is. Except sodomy isn't the only sexual act that two men can perform, and actually isn't performed as often as you'd expect.
But wait...it doesn't matter WHAT sex act they perform, since all sex acts outside the marriage bed are sinful.
But...marriage between two men isn't allowed.
God kind of has the gays screwed coming and going, doesn't he? I'm not even being sarcastic. It's set up so that the ONLY way gay men can live 'in God' is to remain celibate and without love. I'm an asexual- I've never had sex, don't want it, and don't really understand why people bother with. Yet even I think this is pretty cruel. Especially when there's no reason given for it. 'Don't kill' is an obvious one. "Honor mom and dad'...again, obvious. 'Gay sex and marriage are sinful'....um, okay...why? Who is it hurting? Why is God being so random in this case?
It matters because Christians try to force others to follow their beliefs.
You basically have a situation here where God says sodomy is sinful. No reason, just is. Except sodomy isn't the only sexual act that two men can perform, and actually isn't performed as often as you'd expect.
But wait...it doesn't matter WHAT sex act they perform, since all sex acts outside the marriage bed are sinful.
But...marriage between two men isn't allowed.
God kind of has the gays screwed coming and going, doesn't he? I'm not even being sarcastic. It's set up so that the ONLY way gay men can live 'in God' is to remain celibate and without love. I'm an asexual- I've never had sex, don't want it, and don't really understand why people bother with. Yet even I think this is pretty cruel. Especially when there's no reason given for it. 'Don't kill' is an obvious one. "Honor mom and dad'...again, obvious. 'Gay sex and marriage are sinful'....um, okay...why? Who is it hurting? Why is God being so random in this case?
Christianity is unfair from a worldly perspective. If it feels good, shouldn't matter, right?
The truth is according to the scripture that all have sinned and are damned to an everlasting hell without Christ. Most people think that is unfair and it is, but for a different reason than people think. Fair would be the entire human population going to hell, because humans are inherently evil and are enemies of God, every last one of them. God provided a way though through his son to eternal life that none of us deserve. On judgment day, we will all stand before God as equals, and only one thing will matter, whether or not we accepted his son.
And gay marriage is coming, its just a matter of waiting out the Supreme Court. I will be very surprised if they don't strike down DOMA and Prop 8 and with it all state constitutional amendments and legalize gay marriage nationwide.
Christianity is unfair from a worldly perspective. If it feels good, shouldn't matter, right?
The truth is according to the scripture that all have sinned and are damned to an everlasting hell without Christ. Most people think that is unfair and it is, but for a different reason than people think. Fair would be the entire human population going to hell, because humans are inherently evil and are enemies of God, every last one of them. God provided a way though through his son to eternal life that none of us deserve. On judgment day, we will all stand before God as equals, and only one thing will matter, whether or not we accepted his son.
And gay marriage is coming, its just a matter of waiting out the Supreme Court. I will be very surprised if they don't strike down DOMA and Prop 8 and with it all state constitutional amendments and legalize gay marriage nationwide.
Yes, I agree gay marriage is coming, but only after much work and much time attempting to overcome religious resistance. Sodomy was still illegal in many states up until 2003, and some states refuse to take such laws off the books.
As I said, this is why Christian beliefs matter to those outside the religion.
And gays are the ONLY group that gets specifically targeted by God in this manner. He doesn't randomly say that blue eyes are sinful and must be covered, or that people with brown hair can't marry. So saying we are all equally sinful in the eyes of God doesn't really justify how one particular group is less equal than others (sorry, Animal Farm reference.) To accept his son, one must accept the tenets of the religion. You can't simply say you believe in Christ without also attempting to live in his image. Yes, we'll fail at that because we are sinful, but it is the attempt that is important. To carry on with the sodomy and marrying while claiming to believe in this version of the bible and Jesus would be merely paying lip service, and Jesus says he knows what it is in our hearts. To be forgiven of your sins, you must recognize that they are sins. To recognize that sodomy and gay marriage is a sin requires gays to live celibate and alone. Again, something required of no one else.
Well it mentions the threat of male rape - By people who would have been heterosexual by nature if you want to get technical. For example most men who rape men are heterosexual. It was used to dominate and humiliate strangers back in those times (see Judges 19).
It also mentions same-gender sex acts in the context of temple prostitution and ritual sex acts worshipping fertiliity gods. Nothing about monogamous loving relationships or marriage though.
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So is alcoholism.
Alcoholism is harmful so it's not a good analogy. How about heterosexuality, handedness, hair color and eye color?
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God creates people heterosexual, and condemns us for having opposite-gender sex outside of marriage. For that matter, lusting after someone of the opposite gender is condemned.
But men having sex with their sex slaves (concubines) ..... that's okay. As long as the sex slave didn't belong to another man.
And kidnapping and raping young virgin girls is okay too.... as long as they are from another tribe and you give YHWH his share of the virgins and other booty. (I've always wondered what YHWH did with those young virgins?)
Just for the record, being gay is not a sin. Having gay sex is the issue.
If a person wants to be right with God then one should not engage in willful sin, be it drunkness, judgementalism, unforgiveness, lieing, stealing, fornication, adultry or "whatever" as mentioned in the NT.
So you are in favor of same-sex marriage then? Good for you.
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Originally Posted by bchris02
It's what the Bible says. I am not going to debate it. Lesbians are a bit more of a mystery because the Bible has very little to say about lesbianism. There are 10 gay men for every lesbian so homosexuality is found predominantly in males. Maybe it has something to do with cultural norms for women as its not taboo for women to show physical affection for each other like it is men. As for sex, straight people have the same restriction by the Bible outside the marriage bed and there is generally no accusation of bigotry in proclaiming that.
God is the ultimate judge but as a Christian I have to take the scriptures for what they say, even if popular culture says otherwise.
Romans has a passage referring to women having sexual relations with women, whether that's intercourse is up for debate, but it was at least seen as lewdness and sinful.
It's the sex act, most specifically anal intercourse that's sinful, not being gay in itself.
Where do any of the texts specifically mention anal intercourse? They don't.
BTW are you not aware that in raw numbers, there arw FAR more heterosexual people are having anal intercourse right this minute than there are the total number of gay men in existence?
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Originally Posted by bchris02
People may not be able to control who they are attracted to or even who they love, but they do have a choice on whether or not to have sex. The same restrictions are placed on heterosexual couples outside the marriage bed.
So you are in favor of SSM then?
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Originally Posted by bchris02
I have tried to wrap my mind around the temple prostitution argument, but it simply doesn't hold weight when you read the text for what it says.
Then try reading the verses in context of the surrounding verses, and try learning a little about the cultures in which the texts were written.
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