Minnesota ICE - distant passive aggressiveness? (Ada: high school, to live, safety)

[Umbria]

Originally Posted by Glenfield

The fact that people from the coasts can’t accept that everyone doesn’t think and act like them reflects a provincialism masked as sophistication.

I'm moving to the NC coast so I'll have to see. However, considering there are people there from all over the country, although mostly the NE, I can't imagine all people are of the same thinking.

[Glenfield]

Originally Posted by Umbria

I'm moving to the NC coast so I'll have to see. However, considering there are people there from all over the country, although mostly the NE, I can't imagine all people are of the same thinking.

It would be fair to say that I should have said, “.... some people from the coasts...” though in my defense I thought it would be clear that, like the people here who criticize the friendliness of Minnesotans, I was talking about regional tendencies and did not mean each and every person without exception thought this.

I do not deny that people in different parts of the country subscribe to different ways of doing things. What I reject is the premise that there is one right way. That people prefer different ways of interacting with others is fine with me. I am comfortable with the idea that not everyone thinks or acts like me.

[golgi1]

Originally Posted by FJhg

There is a version of this in Washington state as well, they call it the Seattle Freeze. I have noticed this to some degree in Washington, but thinking back to MN, I think it's actually quite worse in MN, the intensity of passive aggressiveness and cold shoulder like mannerisms.

I was raised by old school North Sea and English Lutherans and more or less know the type and their culture well. Its a part of who I am, while not being from Minnesota specifically (and I am not claiming that the culture that I was raised in is the exact same as in Minnesota).

The so called "cold shoulder" is merely a wary (and rightful) meting out of sincere trust while maintaining polite interaction. Such trust isn't shallow, and therefore people have to be careful with it. When it is given, it is a token of a deeper type of friendship or at least community acceptance.

The "passive aggressiveness", which I believe is mislabeled in most cases by people who don't get the culture or what true passive aggressive behavior is, is much of the time merely a deference to unflinching politeness even when interacting with people whom you don't prefer. Because, why be less than fully polite? That only leads to trouble and disharmony, whereas maintaining politeness allows for rough patches to be traversed without incident.

I have to say, I appreciate and prefer more blunt East coast type

I'm somewhat of an expert in the "East Coast type" as this is where I was raised and work. Less than ideal politeness leads to disharmony. People that are blunt, as a rule, generally don't get all of the implicit rules of a harmonious community. I have some Catholic family members who consistently flout the implied rules of politeness, and they are endlessly frustrating. I love them anyway, but they are family and not strangers. In a community with transplants, the reaction would likely be a polite coldness. Consider it defensive community behavior.

This lack of a instinctual level of understanding of the implicit rules of politeness is where I think a lot of transplants may run into social trouble that they find to be inexplicable in MN, and when they go on to label their lack of success as due to passive aggression on the part of the natives.

or more open California type.

I like the openness of Californians, but they are flaky as heck and generally make unreliable friends. You can never tell where you stand, even after a friendship that you thought was confirmed. This isn't really their fault. They have a fairly schizophrenic culture that tries to combine rigid political correctness with a laid back (open) personality and a hint of prudishness (that's likely a halo effect of the political correctness). Its weird, but I do end to get along with them because I have a naturally laid back personality (to a fault). Again, I like many of them (generally the females, as I find many of the native men can have a bit of an aggro chip on their shoulder) but I generally don't prefer them over individuals from a more sincere culture.

Is it accurate to say 'Minnesota Nice' is just a facade and a type of passive aggressive?

I doubt it. "Passive aggressive" is when you try to gain power, or inflict pain, in a relationship through withdrawal or other indirect behavior. I highly doubt that the general culture of an entire state is passive aggressive. I think that people misunderstand this term when attempting to apply it to Minnesotan culture, because they either don't understand the culture, what "passive aggressive" actually means, or both.

It also feels like people in Minnesota feel it's superior in almost every way to any other state. Yes it has many nice things going for it, but the fact remains, those not from MN don't think of it as a place they would want to live and the freezing winters are something that can never be changed. I feel like MN people can be proud of their home state but maybe a little more modest on how great they feel it is.

C'mon bro. Your trying to regulate State pride now? Minnesotans don't owe anyone any temperance in pride in their State. Its likely a good sign of a healthy community culture. Try to be happy for them instead of somewhat spiteful.

[Citykid3785]

Originally Posted by wamer27

Read the Twin Cities section, not the Minnesota one.

Agreed, this has been beaten to death, nothing more to say on this one, does not deserve another thread....

[Citykid3785]

There is no doubt to me that every region comes with it's own communication styles, and some styles will fit certain personalities better than others. And the twin cities certainly does exude passive aggressiveness and insular qualities in my experience.


I recognize that posting on these topics is a form of discussion and entertainment to a degree, in that respect its why we talk about these issues. When you travel the entire country, it can be tempting to lust for a sort of "Franken-culture" that takes the best of each region and none of the bad.


So while I really don't like the negative aspects of MN (n)ice, we do have to acknowledge that it also brings with it some good aspects. MN culture is also very non intimidating, planful, organized,fair and methodical. Generally speaking, things run on time, infrastructure is planned well, and there's a orderliness to things like forming lines, exiting buildings, etc. Ultimately I despise how difficult it is to small talk in MN, but there are some positive aspects to the culture......

[LeTraveler]

Originally Posted by golgi1

I was raised by old school North Sea and English Lutherans and more or less know the type and their culture well. Its a part of who I am, while not being from Minnesota specifically (and I am not claiming that the culture that I was raised in is the exact same as in Minnesota).

Before I arrived here, I also speculated and thought I had a pretty good handle on Minnesotan culture based on experience with similar culture/s. My current view is that it is unique and unless you've lived here (moreso if you have outside experience), you really don't know.

.. why be less than fully polite? That only leads to trouble and disharmony, whereas maintaining politeness allows for rough patches to be traversed without incident.

Or leads to issues left unresolved.

If the OP returns they can describe what they were referring to but when I say passive aggressive I'm referring to actual aggression, indirect aggression.

I had three such major experiences in my first month here. Simple misunderstandings that, had it occurred in the "rude/crude/animal/whatever" East Coast would have been resolved in a few sentences. Frankness doesn't have to result in disharmony.

Re: politeness, it's beyond that, with some. Some will never let on that there is an issue. For those that do, if you ask, they will insist there is none (no doubt to avoid direct conflict). You won't know for sure until they give the definitive, behind the back "kick".

As far as transplants' lack of success, oddly enough, 100 percent of the people I regularly spend time with here are born and bred Minnesotans. I agree with citykid that there are positives to the culture that result from the same tendencies that the negatives do; that's why I'm here.

[LeTraveler]

Originally Posted by Citykid3785

Ultimately I despise how difficult it is to small talk in MN, but there are some positive aspects to the culture......

You think it's difficult? Well, it's not GA, thankfully.

Maybe it's just me but I find that especially people in/from the areas outside of the cities love small talk. In the cities people will rarely strike up convo but they open up if you talk to them. They will talk and talk if you touch on the right subject. It's infinitely harder to make small talk in urban and suburban New England.

[2x3x29x41]

I'll preface things by saying that Minnesota tendencies in this regard - which obviously exist yet equally obviously are overblown - don't particularly concern me. This is probably because I've lived here most of my life, and because such traits in others suit me.

That said, a few observations:

*Minnesotans are not all as described. Obviously. Behavioral tendencies based on regional cultures are just that, tendencies. This merely means than a given person from Minnesota is more likely to manifest such behavior than a given person from, say, Colorado or Virginia. Conversely, it doesn't mean that a given person from, again, say, Colorado or Virginia, won't exhibit the same sort of behavior. It just - assuming the general observation is correct to some degree, and I think it is - means that they'll be somewhat less likely to do so.

*The aforementioned tendency does not automatically bestow itself on non-Minnesotans who become Minnesotans. The cultural trait is learned behavior, acquired over time. Most likely this time is childhood. And since almost a third of Minnesotans were elsewhere (see the fascinating link below for more details), there are well over a million of people here who shouldn't have any particular reason to manifest the tendency.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...were-born.html

*The upshot is that there are vast numbers of people in Minnesotan who do not comport with this stereotype. If a person can't make friends here, the problem isn't everyone else.

[golgi1]

Originally Posted by LeTraveler

Before I arrived here, I also speculated and thought I had a pretty good handle on Minnesotan culture based on experience with similar culture/s. My current view is that it is unique and unless you've lived here (moreso if you have outside experience), you really don't know.

I can respect that.

Or leads to issues left unresolved.

You may be one of those people who has the skill to unemotionally work through issues. I fancy myself one of those as well. As one of those, I've found that the vast majority of people do not have that skill.

Most people are beholden to their emotions, and almost uncontrollably act out of such when culturally permitted to do so.

This emotionally rooted action of most people tends to to complicate issues and confrontations rather than diffuse them.

Because of this pattern, confrontations tend to have the propensity to ruin relationships rather than heal them (in my experience).

Though, its a percentage play. Some relationships can be salvaged when we get lucky and both people are motivated to act beyond their emotion over an issue.

But do you know what else that I've found? Even relationship-successful confrontations take a bite out of the relationship long-term unless its with a very close relative.

Most people keep score, whether they consciously mean to or not. Hot emotions and salvage efforts leave behind fatigue. Thus, those actively salvaged relationships are more likely to eventually fail both because behavioral patterns seldom change, predicting more eventual conflict, and because of the fatigue accumulation.


The possible root of the culture:

So imagine a super-cold climate, before modern heating, wherein community disharmony isn't really an option because lone wolfs die at a faster rate. Also imagine one with many less people, in which new relationship opportunities were therefore much less when one relationship blew up completely.

This group might nurture a culture of confrontational-avoidance over confrontation, perhaps out of a cultural acceptance of the relatively low (imo) statistical probability of actual long-term resolution in confrontations.

My view is that your view in regard to the value of working things out is correct and valid, but also that allowing things to simmer down with time, unaddressed, may have equal or better value in maintaining and salvaging relationships in the long term. Time does heal wounds.

But here's the caveat: it only works if you can successfully move past things as well and not be bitter that something did not get addressed; and here's the hardest part: and even if you noticed a revenge play on the part of the other person. More on this later.

Any two individuals in a group, who may otherwise have a foundational personality incompatibility that would lead to consistent confrontations, can learn to acknowledge those predictable friction points, ignore the friction when these clashes occur, ride it out, and come out on the other side with no history of confrontation (and thus no internal score keeping and overt confrontation fatigue). Would these two people be best friends? Likely not (though some friendships do operate this way, and I would know because one of my closest friendships does).

However, as long as both people can stick to the system, the relationship can remain intact. In other cultures, the community bonds at the juncture of these two people may be relatively nonexistent. When that gets multiplied over a lot of different relationships, you begin to have a fractured, ineffective community.

In fact, your ability to politely deal with these friction points, by the community standard, may be an important community test for acceptance (signalling value beyond that which helps you relationship with that specific person).


Complications:

And what about those daggers in the back? No social system is perfect, that phenomenon is a definite flaw, but I would also guess that it isn't an accepted part of the "official" Minnesota Nice culture beyond a certain degree of accepted off-steam; and that the people who engage in that behavior are breaking the understood rules slightly (beyond simple social exclusion, which is a part of the system that I know but can be worked through, again, with time).

I bet that they get away with it without social censure, which is the flaw. You have my sympathy.

I don't know the specifics of the three situations that you directly experienced, and thus they may wander outside of the relevance of my comments.


However, in general, here's my advice:

Whatever occurs, even petty revenge daggers, what you should do is the following:

keep showing up and keep being unflinchingly consistent (positive) and polite in your reaction and behavior: even when you feel harmed by someone else's petty action or any kind of non-acceptance.

Show a willingness to glide over issues. Consistency will demonstrate your cultural skill to the community, and consistency is the single largest key to this in my opinion.

After all, this system is meant to foster community (hence, the part about showing up) and not individual relationships (though, again, my view is that it does ultimately help people have more of a quantity of at least baseline-functional relationships when they understand the system).

Thus, the only thing that will demonstrate your value to the community, which confers social capital that will attract positive relationships, is consistency working successfully within it and in spite of its flaws. This is what will confer social trust.

Understanding and working within the system, itself, is generally the foundational social capital that you need to be accepted. If you can't understand it or refuse to take part, it will keep you on the outside and, I predict, will make it more socially acceptable for people to take petty revenge for perceived slights against you. As you become more accepted, I predict that those revenge daggers will become less acceptable (but likely not eliminated).


Here's a quick story of a recent experience of mine that may relate some of what I am trying to communicate:

My extended family has had a series of cabins on a specific mountain lake (not in Minnesota) for about four generations. They are of North Sea Lutheran stock (as prior noted). Beyond their ownership, the rest of the Lake is largely populated by families from their church. So, its almost all Lutherans. They largely abide by the culture that we are speaking about here. I understand the culture fairly well and thus have little issue when I am only responsible for myself.

My sister married a guy from a Portuguese immigrant family, who was raised by a single mother. His cultural incompatibility was identified early on (he was moronically rude at points, and still is) and was warned against with disapproval from my father and grandfather. She married him anyway and had a bunch of kids.

I invited him and their boys to the lake last summer. He had no outdoors experience, is stubborn and irrationally egotistical, has OCD in regard to dirt, and has no sense of manners beyond the Portuguese sense (ie: little to speak of, relatively speaking). Regardless, the lake is a bit of a baptism for family members and I wanted him and his sons to feel included: note my overly-agreeable sense of community. I should have arranged just to take his boys.

I should have seen this coming and avoided the situation, but tension arose between us at the lake. That's allowed. What isn't allowed is when he started raising his voice on the dock to the point of yelling. That's a huge community no-no. Why: even talking carries halfway across the lake. Raise your voice, and you are airing your dirty laundry to everyone on it. However, most offensive of all, you are disturbing the peace in a manner that shows willful disregard for it.

I quickly chastised him, but knew that it was too late. The yelling probably lasted four seconds, but that was enough. We had extended family staying at the cabin directly next door to us, just to start.

Here's the cultural component to pay attention to:

1. I was borrowing the cabin from a couple (in my extended family) who are tremendously proper in terms of the culture that we are speaking about here, and thus I was in a real sense entrusted with their social image at the lake.

2. Because I invited my brother in-law, I was also responsible for his behavior to include in regard to the unspoken rules of civility (not properly weighing this risk before we went was my largest failure).

Resuming the story:

We started packing that night and left the next morning (one day early). That didn't matter.

I also made another mistake and allowed him to talk me into leaving one small cereal box on top of the refrigerator, for whomever might come next to the cabin (the next weekend), even though my first (and correct) instinct was to throw it out after meticulously cleaning the rest of the cabin (I actually thought it was there when we had arrived, but was later informed that it wasn't). Part of this culture is that you never leave work or mess for someone else to do or clean up, when you are responsible for it. You leave things as you found them, and hopefully better (ie: leave more supplies than were there when you came, which I also did).

Well, my first contact from the cabin owners was almost immediate (within one week) and in regard to the box of cereal. They sent me a text reminding me to throw everything out, and that they didn't want to have to do that. This was shameful for me, because of course that is correct. Ultimately it was my poor decision, but I had allowed myself to be influenced. I apologized profusely and, if it were only going to be that, it would have been no big deal. I received assurance that the rest of the cabin was left in great condition.

However, with time, I'm sure that news of the yelling incident got back to the owners. How do I know? Because they won't return my contact efforts at this point. That's how these things get dealt with. If I didn't know how to handle this at this point, I would eventually see them at a wedding or funeral and everything would be brushed over. Time would eventually heal the wound. Showing up and acting normally would assure it. However, my cabin privileges would be reduced to nil in spite of me being a better guest than most (when not responsible for other people).

Final cultural takeaway:

3. They will never say anything to me about the yelling. Heck, they probably think it was me (though, if they do, it will be harder to heal).


Regardless, this is how I will handle the situation toward resolving it, and this is how you should handle your situations:

I will get myself invited back up to the lake (on my own). I can even use family politeness to my advantage at this point. If I ask someone directly (other than the owners of the cabin that I prior borrowed), they will say yes even if they really don't want to deal with me as a guest. If that fails, I will rent a hotel room and go up on a couple of weekends when everyone is there.

I will ignore bad behavior even if it is against me, be overly polite and deferential, and in general just model the culture for as long as it takes for the friction to heal. I'm unsure how long it will take, but that's the road back. Essentially, I have to put in the time to earn back community trust with demonstrated behavior.

The culture is such that when someone does this, generally they cannot refuse to again take a person into the fold. Over time, your mistakes will be ignored.

Re: politeness, it's beyond that, with some. Some will never let on that there is an issue. For those that do, if you ask, they will insist there is none (no doubt to avoid direct conflict). You won't know for sure until they give the definitive, behind the back "kick".

Yup, this is standard. See above. You can work through it. In fact, you have to to be accepted.

Again, I have no direct Minnesota experience. Minnesotans here can critique my perception of their culture, perhaps using my take on my recent cabin experience as a measuring stick for my accuracy in perceiving their culture.

I actually prefer the culture of my Lutheran family, even when falling afoul of it. I wish everyone abided by it. Its simply more civilized. However, I can fully empathize with the frustration for those who have not had the benefit of being raised within something akin to it (like my hapless brother in-law) while having to navigate it.

[treemoni]

Boy have I come to detest the word "polite" because of Minnesota. The word is greatly abused. It is not polite to harbor negative feelings, refuse to express them and pretend that everything is okay when it's really not. Your suppressed feelings do not go away. They get buried in your subconscious and pile up until you either explode on someone or implode yourself. The former can lead to physical violence. The latter? Depression. Both can reach levels that lead to death. It is unhealthy to suppress your feelings. Minnesotans aren't in the cold European wild anymore searching for food. What was used to survive eons ago is now destructive to relationships in modern society. Adapt. Minnesotans struggle greatly with change.

I do think you're correct about the origins of this behavior. It's not just Minnesotans. It's Europeans as a whole. Europeans were fighting to survive when Africa was thriving. Being in survival mode WILL make you aggressive, because it's every man for himself/his family. But in Africa there were plenty of resources, so people shared the wealth. Abundavce vs scarcity mentality. These traits have been carried on for generations. The real issue is the Europeans have never adapted their mindset to modern times. Still operating under the scarcity model when they're the ones that actually have abundance now.

Your post has a lot of gems. Thanks for sharing.