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Instead of forcing growth and diversity like building "afforadable housing" such as rentals and condos, let the diversity and growth happen naturally. That way it will be genuine not contrived. Once someone can afford to move to the suburbs and buy a $300,000 house, great, welcome whoever it is with open arms. But when cities think they can build a better community by forcing growth and diversity by building cheap housing, problems will follow. I am sure if you ask someone who has lived in BP 25 years ago and compare it today, they will say the city is worse off today then it was 25 years ago and that many neighborhoods that were safe 25 years ago are now very shady and unsafe.
It's consumer demand that is overwhelmingly driving the growth of rentals and condos, not a desire by cities to specifically build affordable housing. That's the free market at work. Developers are creating them because that's where the money is, especially when you consider that a developer can make more money with them than with single-family homes (the margin per unit might be smaller, but the volume more than makes up for it). That isn't to say nobody is going to build single-family homes anymore, because of course they will. But we're not going to see what we did in 2000-2006 anytime soon, because it's not and never will be the same economic situation that existed then.
And you can buy really nice homes in the suburbs for much less than $300K these days. Not to mention the increasing number of single-family homes that are becoming rentals too -- there are a lot of people choosing to rent out their homes rather than sell them, plus a lot of investment activity in this market segment too.
Not sure why exactly North is being discussed here (North being in Minneapolis, not in a suburb, and not in BP), and is obviously an extreme example -- and I would think fairly unique in the Twin Cities, as far as its struggles and problems -- but for what it's worth, even kids who graduate from North still seem to be doing okay. The article below is pretty interesting: Minneapolis North High School seniors glad to be graduating from North | Twin Cities Daily Planet
Note that one student actually likes it better than her previous school (Champlin Park), and others have been able to take advanced courses, as well as to take advantage of PSEO. The class president was headed to college at St. Catherine's, where she'll be taking classes next to kids from Rosemount and other Twin Cities -- and beyond -- high schools. Clearly there are still students at North who care about school, and they're headed off to college, just like their suburban peers.
I admit that I wouldn't willingly choose to send my kids to North at this point, but that doesn't mean that kids from North can't also graduate with a good education and be successful in college and in life. I do value advanced course offerings in the school, among other things, but at some it does get dangerous to get too hung up on looking at averages; averages can tell you part of the story, but they don't necessarily mean much to the individual.
And I'm sure MN-Born-n-Raised's children would have done just fine at North, if that's where they had ended up. Sounds like there are still some advanced courses, there's PSEO, and because it's so small, there's really good teacher-student ratio.
But again, North is a very unique example, and doesn't seem particularly relevant here, anyway.
And you can buy really nice homes in the suburbs for much less than $300K these days. Not to mention the increasing number of single-family homes that are becoming rentals too -- there are a lot of people choosing to rent out their homes rather than sell them, plus a lot of investment activity in this market segment too.
My impression was that stolafs69 would consider the availability of houses for under $300k a negative, as it would bring down the quality of the neighborhood by bringing in the dreaded lower-income people.
Not sure why exactly North is being discussed here (North being in Minneapolis, not in a suburb, and not in BP), and is obviously an extreme example -- and I would think fairly unique in the Twin Cities, as far as its struggles and problems -- but for what it's worth, even kids who graduate from North still seem to be doing okay. The article below is pretty interesting: Minneapolis North High School seniors glad to be graduating from North | Twin Cities Daily Planet
Note that one student actually likes it better than her previous school (Champlin Park), and others have been able to take advanced courses, as well as to take advantage of PSEO. The class president was headed to college at St. Catherine's, where she'll be taking classes next to kids from Rosemount and other Twin Cities -- and beyond -- high schools. Clearly there are still students at North who care about school, and they're headed off to college, just like their suburban peers.
I admit that I wouldn't willingly choose to send my kids to North at this point, but that doesn't mean that kids from North can't also graduate with a good education and be successful in college and in life. I do value advanced course offerings in the school, among other things, but at some it does get dangerous to get too hung up on looking at averages; averages can tell you part of the story, but they don't necessarily mean much to the individual.
And I'm sure MN-Born-n-Raised's children would have done just fine at North, if that's where they had ended up. Sounds like there are still some advanced courses, there's PSEO, and because it's so small, there's really good teacher-student ratio.
But again, North is a very unique example, and doesn't seem particularly relevant here, anyway.
While the class presidents from other high schools are headed off for places like Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc.....and it is relevant because we are discussing the ease of success in various high schools. The difference with North and other Minneapolis and St. Paul schools is few kids strive to achieve vs the suburban schools where most kids strive to achieve. Averages are important to see what the middle kids in the school are doing. For most suburban schools those middle kids are going to the U of MN or St. Kate's vs the inner city school kids that are dropping out of high school. THAT is the difference, not so much what the number 1 kid in the class is doing because yes, they will move on no matter where they are.
You missed my point, if your kids attended NORTH high school things would have been a lot different. Anoka had all of the things you wanted and you were able to get the advanced classes with the advanced kids. Schools like North just don't HAVE the kids to do that with. There are kids in every school that won't go on to college, etc., however, better schools have options for those kids as well as the advanced students. Also, ONE story out of how many kids doesn't mean it's so, what about those 25% at Anoka--maybe they WOULD do better elsewhere, you just don't know.
I'm not convinced that my DD or DS would do just as well in North. I don't know the culture of that specific school and I could easily predict that at a certain point, teachers are bogged down with kids that are a total distraction.
Re: the lower 25% of students in Anoka and your question if they would they do better elsewhere?....think: That is hard to say. If there were LESS distractions then the lower 25% probably would do better but I predict they would still fall far short of their potential. That's been my point all along. Anoka has a subset of kids that simply don't work hard because of the culture in their home (a.k.a. parents). That happens because broken families that don't demand success. In our family culture we are the 1st generation that demands success. So while I think our kids are bright, my kids will be the 1st to admit that we as parents helped open some doors for them by encouraging to apply to the CSOM Gopher School of Business (20 hand picked kids that attend the U in 11th grade to recruit them), Boys State, push them to do their best at MN History Day, guide them why it is important to get into "better" top colleges etc.
The bottom 25% of Anoka or BP students could be extremely bright but they don't have the family culture to do their very best. There are ethnic cultures that demand performance (Jewish, specific Asian nationalities, and Indian (from India)). So while a Vietnamese student could come to America with near zero English speaking ability at age 10 and downright poor, very well might rise to be a Doctor though pure horse power and drive (and enough innate brain power). That's the culture of their family and that is why they succeed against the odds of poverty and statistics. The bottom 25% of those Anoka students don't care because their family just doesn't care.
Last edited by MN-Born-n-Raised; 08-31-2012 at 04:55 AM..
Getting back to the point of the "best" cities in MN. It's heavily weighted on school averages. My point is Cottage Grove or Woodbury will generate the same results for parents who care enough to be heavily involved. They both"inferior" with Cottage Grove over Woodbury but that won't change the outcome of the individual student. So I think have well funded schools with plenty of passionate parents. The community culture (on average) might be those who pick up and move to Edina from Maple Grove are wrong is assuming higher averages equals better opportunities.
Personally, I don't want to live in area where kids think they are "all that" because their parents have a buck in their pocket. It's more common that people think. We were looking at buying a lake home in northern MN years ago. My budget was high so we checked out the Whitefish Chain. There were all kinds of cigar boats stuffed with kids with attitudes. As a parent, I wanted to dodge that shallow group of kids just as I also want to dodge kids who are involved in gangs. Hence, we bought in different area.
My impression was that stolafs69 would consider the availability of houses for under $300k a negative, as it would bring down the quality of the neighborhood by bringing in the dreaded lower-income people.
Actaully no. I think having affordable single family homes is great and home ownership is the foundation of a great community and support home ownership as much as possible. Its rentals and cheap condo complexes I hate. Too many rentals destroy a community....look at North Mpls. Most the houses there are rentals. Cheap condo or townhome complexs are also bad for a community (Burnsville) and tend to turn into rentals themselves after the original residents default on their mortgages.
Getting back to the point of the "best" cities in MN. It's heavily weighted on school averages. My point is Cottage Grove or Woodbury will generate the same results for parents who care enough to be heavily involved. They both"inferior" with Cottage Grove over Woodbury but that won't change the outcome of the individual student. So I think have well funded schools with plenty of passionate parents. The community culture (on average) might be those who pick up and move to Edina from Maple Grove are wrong is assuming higher averages equals better opportunities.
Personally, I don't want to live in area where kids think they are "all that" because their parents have a buck in their pocket. It's more common that people think. We were looking at buying a lake home in northern MN years ago. My budget was high so we checked out the Whitefish Chain. There were all kinds of cigar boats stuffed with kids with attitudes. As a parent, I wanted to dodge that shallow group of kids just as I also want to dodge kids who are involved in gangs. Hence, we bought in different area.
Comparing Cottage Grove and Woodbury is very interesting example because they are part of the same school district. However if you look at the junior high and HS rankings for both cities, you will see that the schools located in the city of woodbury have much higher test scores then the schools located in cottage grove. All the schools have similar facilities and funding, yet have a drastic difference in the school rankings because of test scores. Whould you rather send you kid to a top 5% ranking school or a top 50% school. Simple as that.
Actaully no. I think having affordable single family homes is great and home ownership is the foundation of a great community and support home ownership as much as possible. Its rentals and cheap condo complexes I hate. Too many rentals destroy a community....look at North Mpls. Most the houses there are rentals. Cheap condo or townhome complexs are also bad for a community (Burnsville) and tend to turn into rentals themselves after the original residents default on their mortgages.
You know which cities have a lot of rentals? Beverly Hills and Santa Monica, CA.
Obviously these cities are completely different than North Minneapolis, Burnsville, Brooklyn Park, and just about every other city in Minnesota, but this notion that rentals destroy a community is BS. There are plenty of really nice cities like the areas I mentioned that have more people that rent than own. And it appears this trend will continue until our national housing crisis is fixed. Could be a long time.
Too many rentals doesn't destroy a community, too many poor people destroys a community.
Where should poor people live? In a town with jobs naturally, thus losing the poor status.
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