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Thanks for the info, jja. About NH's property tax - having maintained local control, every NH town has its own tax rate, and each town its own 'flavor'. You want sidewalks, streetlights and trash collection? You want a town which shovels $ into its schools? You can choose a town which has voted to pay for these things. Most do not. Local control provides us with a unique convenience for residents to have a say in town politics without the disconnection felt in bigger gov't. places. I appreciate that and do not mind paying my property taxes since I know our tax $ directly contributes to the quality of life that we've helped create/maintain, and not a bunch of corruption and entitlement programs I would not choose to contribute to. I do like NH, but if state gov't. does not stop the spending and blue trend we are considering retirement elsewhere as this will inevitably impact small towns like mine in the future if not curbed now. Yes, Alaska is desireable, but Idaho is much more accessible.
The problem with this system of government (putting all of the tax on property) is that it is definitely unconstitutional... at least at the Federal level. It is a direct form of taxation. Our founding father's wanted all tax to be voluntary... If you put a tax on tea, I can choose not to buy the tea. If you tax my income at a progressive rate, I can choose not to work and barter instead. But if I own any property and fail to pay my property tax, I get my property stripped from me. This is not a problem when you are young and working and therefore have a lower tax burden. But what about when you are retired and all of your neighbours have young children and they out-vote you to build more schools and roads forcing you to pay nearly twice as much in property tax which you can't afford because you are on a fixed income? These are the circumstances where many old timers are being taxed out of their homes in NH and to me this is a travesty.
The chart posted is misleading. Alaska collects a lot of taxes from the oil drilling, etc., but unless you live in a high-tax incorporated area (think Anchorage, Mat-Su Borough, Fairbanks-North Star Borough), you can have low or no taxes. My property has no property taxes on it, when I live there I'll have no state income tax or sales tax to pay either...
NH is headed down the same road Vermont already went down (namely, being taken over by out of state socialist scum who then destroyed the state). Maybe NH can turn around but I'm doubtful. I think the elections later this year and in 2012 will tell a lot about NH's future direction.
We should have put a wall around Vermont and seceded 50 years ago (there was a secession movement as far back as the 1920's with Vrest Orton). We didn't, now there's no jobs, high taxes, insane politics (our legislature, composed of 70 percent outsiders, debated homosexual marriage for months all the while ignoring a growing financial and economic disaster, last year). Other states take heed of what happened, one of the most conservative states is now among the most leftist. Watch out for people fleeing socialist states who don't leave socialism behind...I think ID's biggest threat is from Californians who still think the stupid California politics is okay...
I don't think ID is really like Vermont at all other than having lots of natural beauty and having a cold climate. The vastness of the Western states can be pretty shocking the first time seen to a New Englander...
The chart posted is misleading. Alaska collects a lot of taxes from the oil drilling, etc., but unless you live in a high-tax incorporated area (think Anchorage, Mat-Su Borough, Fairbanks-North Star Borough), you can have low or no taxes. My property has no property taxes on it, when I live there I'll have no state income tax or sales tax to pay either...
NH is headed down the same road Vermont already went down (namely, being taken over by out of state socialist scum who then destroyed the state). Maybe NH can turn around but I'm doubtful. I think the elections later this year and in 2012 will tell a lot about NH's future direction.
We should have put a wall around Vermont and seceded 50 years ago (there was a secession movement as far back as the 1920's with Vrest Orton). We didn't, now there's no jobs, high taxes, insane politics (our legislature, composed of 70 percent outsiders, debated homosexual marriage for months all the while ignoring a growing financial and economic disaster, last year). Other states take heed of what happened, one of the most conservative states is now among the most leftist. Watch out for people fleeing socialist states who don't leave socialism behind...I think ID's biggest threat is from Californians who still think the stupid California politics is okay...
I don't think ID is really like Vermont at all other than having lots of natural beauty and having a cold climate. The vastness of the Western states can be pretty shocking the first time seen to a New Englander...
This is exactly what I was addressing to the other fellow. You are spot on.
Great feedback from everyone. Much appreciated. Its sounds to me like Idaho is similar to Vermont circa < 1960's. One concern this raises is that like old-Vermont the culture of Idaho appears to be based on the 'live and let live' mentality which is how the left took control of the state. Prior to their arrival state government did very little. Working in state government paid little reward and garnered little respect. When the hippies arrived nobody paid much attention. When the hippies started running for local offices that nobody else wanted, nobody paid much attention. When the hippies started running for statewide offices, most people were relieved that somebody else wanted to do the thankless job. In the 1990's when is became apparent that the left had majority control of all seats of state government nobody paid much attention either - after all up to that point government was harmless what's the worst they could do? Today, we're all feeling the worst. We're finding that government is not harmless and that there is nothing nice about the folks from the south who came up and volunteered to run our state for us.
So back to Idaho, what procedures or controls (cultural, political etc.) are in place to prevent this from happening in Idaho? If the libertarian credo is built on idea that culture does not matter whats to prevent a cultural assault from the left like Vermont experienced? Conservatism has its built in defenses as its basic frame is that culture does matter. The more free wheeling classic liberal states like old-Vermont are defenseless. Can Idaho continue to survive the hippies form CA? Are you so sure your hippies are harmless?
Great feedback from everyone. Much appreciated. Its sounds to me like Idaho is similar to Vermont circa < 1960's. One concern this raises is that like old-Vermont the culture of Idaho appears to be based on the 'live and let live' mentality which is how the left took control of the state. Prior to their arrival state government did very little. Working in state government paid little reward and garnered little respect. When the hippies arrived nobody paid much attention. When the hippies started running for local offices that nobody else wanted, nobody paid much attention. When the hippies started running for statewide offices, most people were relieved that somebody else wanted to do the thankless job. In the 1990's when is became apparent that the left had majority control of all seats of state government nobody paid much attention either - after all up to that point government was harmless what's the worst they could do? Today, we're all feeling the worst. We're finding that government is not harmless and that there is nothing nice about the folks from the south who came up and volunteered to run our state for us.
So back to Idaho, what procedures or controls (cultural, political etc.) are in place to prevent this from happening in Idaho? If the libertarian credo is built on idea that culture does not matter whats to prevent a cultural assault from the left like Vermont experienced? Conservatism has its built in defenses as its basic frame is that culture does matter. The more free wheeling classic liberal states like old-Vermont are defenseless. Can Idaho continue to survive the hippies form CA? Are you so sure your hippies are harmless?
The assault on Idaho has already begun... just look at Ada County where most of the Californians reside. They already pay more for car registration and have to do vehicle government inspection tests that the rest of Idaho currently does not. [MOD CUT]
Last edited by Sage of Sagle; 01-20-2010 at 09:25 PM..
Reason: General US political rant
jja100...let's not turn this thread into a general rant on national politics....we have enough issues right here in Idaho...what area of the state do you reside again?
Bang!...I think you're getting the wrong idea of Idaho. NORTH Idaho has a pretty libertarian yet conservative bent...SE Idaho with a heavy LDS population is very republican, and the Boise Metro area is mixed but still probably 60/40 conservative.
But reading your post just above it sounds like we're Nelson BC allowing all the Californian hippies to come in and take over, burning their draft cards and American flags on the way in. What I see is a lot of people leaving blue states and coming to Idaho BECAUSE it's a more conservative area. I freely admit that my anecdotal experience is my own perspective from within my own sphere of influence, but what I see is conservatives here wanting small government and personal and property rights...not "free love hippies" like some other posts would suggest...
jja100...let's not turn this thread into a general rant on national politics....we have enough issues right here in Idaho...what area of the state do you reside again?
Bang!...I think you're getting the wrong idea of Idaho. NORTH Idaho has a pretty libertarian yet conservative bent...SE Idaho with a heavy LDS population is very republican, and the Boise Metro area is mixed but still probably 60/40 conservative.
But reading your post just above it sounds like we're Nelson BC allowing all the Californian hippies to come in and take over, burning their draft cards and American flags on the way in. What I see is a lot of people leaving blue states and coming to Idaho BECAUSE it's a more conservative area. I freely admit that my anecdotal experience is my own perspective from within my own sphere of influence, but what I see is conservatives here wanting small government and personal and property rights...not "free love hippies" like some other posts would suggest...
Don't take this to offence but it is because of this level of complacency that we as a country have reached this point. I honestly don't view Idaho to be as conservative as you portray. The level of taxation is almost at the same rates as California for property/income/ and sales tax. The problem is that our Federal government is putting much pressure on state autonomy and this will in turn transform states like Montana and Idaho into states like Vermont without the need for demographic changes... You can see how this ties in with the OP's premise.
BTW, since you inquired, I have multiple homes around the world, two of which are in the US. NID is one. My parents came from Europe... they left for obvious reasons. But now I am not so sure there is much of a difference between the two. If you add up what you pay for Federal + State + Property tax it is about the same amount that Europeans pay except with no healthcare or public transportation.
PS. Italy and Malta have no property tax on their first residence... does this make them more coservative than us
No offense taken. I simply hold the opinion that your views are far from the reality in Idaho but certainly both of us could be wrong in our polarized views of the same region.
I wasn't asking how many homes you have, as if that has relevance beyond impressing us. (Don't take this wrong but the comment smacked of giving objectivist weight to the veracity of your statement) I'm simply interested to hear that one of your many homes is here in North Idaho. That was what I was after as your views seem to draw conclusions about much of the state so I was wondering where you reside full time.
I am not nearly as affluent as you likely are, but I do pretty well. I own a successful business, and I can tell you that by moving my business out of SoCal and to NID I am saving well over $15K a year in taxes, as well as industry-specific fees, licenses, etc. This is on top of the enormous hassle that it has become to have W4 employees in California.
If you equate property taxes to being conservative, then I don't have much to say. I view it as personal freedom, smaller government, gun/hunting/fishing rights, a societal acceptance of conservative ideals including personal responsibility and self reliance.
All I can say is if you're comparing the two and finding Europe (or specifically the EU) equally conservative to Idaho, I must admit that I just don't know what to say to you beyond wishing you well and conceding that I think you're completely unrealistic in this regard but I support your right to share your views.
So, Bang!...you have both this person's view and my view, among others. Do with it what you will...as neither of us are likely to sway the other via an internet forum argument...
No offense taken. I simply hold the opinion that your views are far from the reality in Idaho but certainly both of us could be wrong in our polarized views of the same region.
I concur that Idaho is significantly more business friendly than California or Europe but if you are working for someone else you are paying a pretty hefty amount.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage of Sagle
I wasn't asking how many homes you have, as if that has relevance beyond impressing us. (Don't take this wrong but the comment smacked of giving objectivist weight to the veracity of your statement) I'm simply interested to hear that one of your many homes is here in North Idaho. That was what I was after as your views seem to draw conclusions about much of the state so I was wondering where you reside full time.
I thought I would add in that "extra" info simply because I didn't want anyone here to think I am some ultra conservative that lived his whole life in the back-country and lacks a worldly perspective. I have traveled most of the world and I can say that this is still the best country on Earth but for how much longer I don't know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage of Sagle
I am not nearly as affluent as you likely are, but I do pretty well. I own a successful business, and I can tell you that by moving my business out of SoCal and to NID I am saving well over $15K a year in taxes, as well as industry-specific fees, licenses, etc. This is on top of the enormous hassle that it has become to have W4 employees in California.
I don't consider myself affluent... maybe upper middle class. Again, on the business freedom front, Idaho is much freer than California but from what I have read about Ada County, it seems that there are some laws passing that I am not fond of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage of Sagle
If you equate property taxes to being conservative, then I don't have much to say. I view it as personal freedom, smaller government, gun/hunting/fishing rights, a societal acceptance of conservative ideals including personal responsibility and self reliance.
Like I said in another post, property tax is unconstitutional simply because it is not an indirect tax. Also, the US property tax is extremely progressive because you pay more as the value of your home increases which has no bearing on income. Since Europe doesn't do this, even the UK which has Bands, I find it ironic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage of Sagle
All I can say is if you're comparing the two and finding Europe (or specifically the EU) equally conservative to Idaho, I must admit that I just don't know what to say to you beyond wishing you well and conceding that I think you're completely unrealistic in this regard but I support your right to share your views.
In recent years, many European governments have been leaning more to the right.... Italy used to have a 60% income tax at its highest bracket and is now down to 45%. I wouldn't say Europe is conservative at all but they aren't as communist as they used to be and we aren't as capitalist as we used to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage of Sagle
So, Bang!...you have both this person's view and my view, among others. Do with it what you will...as neither of us are likely to sway the other via an internet forum argument...
Bang... we have provided you with a wealth of information. Is Idaho similar to Vermont? No. Will Idaho become something like Vermont? Yes but this may take some time... perhaps 30-40 years. Sage may have a different perspective but I respect it and truly only time will tell.
I can see that Idaho is politically nothing like modern day Vermont. However, the risk of Idaho sliding towards the left like Vermont did appears slim but possible. Societies that are strong on personal freedom generally lack the capacity to resist insurgent social mores. Thus, what ultimately happens in Idaho all depends on the scale of outside views it attempts to absorb. That being said, the likelihood of Idaho becoming another Vermont seems slim considering the selective sorting taking place across the country. People like me moving to more conservative states and while liberal are moving to places more aligned with their views. under this scenario, I'm guessing any liberalization taking place in Idaho will be temporary as more and more conservatives folks find their way to the sate and more and more liberals leave.
Good conversation. Not sure if or when I'll find my way to Idaho but I've made the first step of putting my house on the market so I can get out of VT. I'm hoping the recent Massachusetts election inspires more liberal folks to move to Vermont giving opportunity for people like me to more easily leave.
Regarding the comments about NH, my view of the state is not much different than Vermont. Its different but not better. And, its not going to be able to hold off the liberal assault its taking from three sides for much longer.
Bang!
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