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Cincy RIse, that map is a crock of poo for streetcar advocates to use to try to sell the streetcars to those of us who do not support them. I can give you a much longer list of things in my neighborhood that continue to be overlooked again and again while City Hall tries to reinvent the wheel. That route will take forever to built and it wont get any cheaper to build as time passes by either.
And yes, those are my opinions, but so are all your points about the streetcar...we can all agree to disagree what I dont like about streetcar advocates is their approach and their attitudes about their opinions always being right over those of us who are considered naysayers of the streetcars.
Cincy RIse, that map is a crock of poo for streetcar advocates to use to try to sell the streetcars to those of us who do not support them. I can give you a much longer list of things in my neighborhood that continue to be overlooked again and again while City Hall tries to reinvent the wheel. That route will take forever to built and it wont get any cheaper to build as time passes by either.
And yes, those are my opinions, but so are all your points about the streetcar...we can all agree to disagree what I dont like about streetcar advocates is their approach and their attitudes about their opinions always being right over those of us who are considered naysayers of the streetcars.
The map isn't of the streetcar silly ... it's of the 2002 proposed light rail route that voters turned down. It was printed on tee's and hoodies to be facetious reasons when gas hit $4.00 a gallon.
The streetcar Phase 1 route can be running by 2012. As far as cost, if you can tell me what the city can do to turn a 4-to-1 profit, let me know.
It's not that we can't afford to do this ... it's that we cannot afford to NOT do this. We need the revenue more than ever ... and if you or wilson have a different Economic Impact Study, I'd love to see it!
Btw, my points aren't based on opinion, they're based on previous/current/future statistics.
Btw, my points aren't based on opinion, they're based on previous/current/future statistics.
Not trying to stir things up here, I have been watching just out of curiosity as we are considering a move to the metro Cincy area in the near future and don't have thoughts one way or the other on this issue. Just out of curiosity though, how can points be based on "future statistics" and not be based on opinions? That would seem to indicate someone knows how studies/actual situations are going to turn out before they occur. I can believe they are based on previous/current statistics though.
Last edited by rrtechno; 01-15-2010 at 11:32 AM..
Reason: typo
People keep saying that Lightrail and Streetcars don't pay themselves off in the long run, well neither do lane expansions on highways that only suffice for 15 years or so until the highway needs to be expanded again. Thats NEVER going to pay itself off (and I-75 isn't going to be a toll road anytime soon) As far as public transportation goes, the entire state of Ohio is an EPIC FAIL. Cleveland is the only city in the state with a reliable rail network. LAME. It's gotten so bad that it's going to take God knows what to condition people into using options other than cars. If the transit routes shown on Cincy Rise's T-Shirt ever happens, The Cincy metro area will explode. However, I don't wanna wait 20+ years for this to happen, so it's already too late. I'm in my early twenties and I'm not going to stand around and wait for Cincy to catch up with the rest of the country, wake up and be 40 and say "it finally happened" There are many other larger cities (and cities of the same size) that offer more. Cities around the same size of Cincy with public trans. (metro areas between 1.5-3 million): St. Louis, Cleveland, Tampa, Minneapolis, St. Paul, Pittsburgh, Portland, Buffalo, Denver, Calgary, Austin (building commuter and light rail). Most of these cities are already adding on to their existing lines. So something must be working better than expected.
flash3780, the PROBLEM with buses is that their routes can change so frequently, this is not positive ... and good luck find an urban planner that would agree with this statement. Folks, this isn't rocket science.
There is a reason why bus stops are usually never placed on city maps, but streetcars are.
I don't see how bus shelters that incorporate the amenities I suggested are anything less than "permanent". Buses can operate in the same ways that subways do. Buses could be far more user-friendly.
It seems to me that the most effective bus system would incorporate major express routes (with larger buses and perhaps dedicated lanes) that operated between "hubs" much like a metro rail. Riders could transfer to smaller buses on shorter routes once they reached their hub.
I don't understand what the problem is with this sort of "out-of-the-box thinking". I think that a bus system like the one I've described is simply the best way to make the "Transit Map" that Cincy-Rise posted a reality. The cost of building those rail lines would be enormous. Using or expanding existing roads for bus lanes would likely be far more cost effective.
Of course, I believe that the best way to make a public transit system is for it to be privately owned (the subways in New York, the light rails in Chicago, and the trolley-cars in San Fransisco were originally privately owned before the governments took ownership). But, that's another story for another day.
People keep saying that Lightrail and Streetcars don't pay themselves off in the long run, well neither do lane expansions on highways that only suffice for 15 years or so until the highway needs to be expanded again. Thats NEVER going to pay itself off (and I-75 isn't going to be a toll road anytime soon) As far as public transportation goes, the entire state of Ohio is an EPIC FAIL. Cleveland is the only city in the state with a reliable rail network. LAME. It's gotten so bad that it's going to take God knows what to condition people into using options other than cars. If the transit routes shown on Cincy Rise's T-Shirt ever happens, The Cincy metro area will explode. However, I don't wanna wait 20+ years for this to happen, so it's already too late. I'm in my early twenties and I'm not going to stand around and wait for Cincy to catch up with the rest of the country, wake up and be 40 and say "it finally happened" There are many other larger cities (and cities of the same size) that offer more. Cities around the same size of Cincy with public trans. (metro areas between 1.5-3 million): St. Louis, Cleveland, Tampa, Minneapolis, St. Paul, Pittsburgh, Portland, Buffalo, Denver, Calgary, Austin (building commuter and light rail). Most of these cities are already adding on to their existing lines. So something must be working better than expected.
I agree 100%. Expanding highways is a losing plan because it never solves the problem. On a good weather / no accident rush hour every interstate going in or out of downtown is nearly at a stand still. Through in rain or a fender bender and you have gridlock. Adding a lane to the interstate at a cost of billions every 20 years does nothing.
I'm graduating law school next year and love Cincinnati. However, I feel the same about how behind alot of other cities we are. I'm encourage by all the development going on now, especially the Banks and OTR. In my opinion the biggest problem facing the area now is lack of adequate public transportation, light rail. It's not very encouraging either knowing there is little support for building anything soon, not to mention the years it would take to even construct. We need to be more progressive so we can attract and/or keep young professionals.
Not trying to stir things up here, I have been watching just out of curiosity as we are considering a move to the metro Cincy area in the near future and don't have thoughts one way or the other on this issue. Just out of curiosity though, how can points be based on "future statistics" and not be based on opinions? That would seem to indicate someone knows how studies/actual situations are going to turn out before they occur. I can believe they are based on previous/current statistics though.
This would be a great point, other than the fact that ANYTHING & EVERYTHING built undergoes a financial analysis. Do you think that QCSII's construction didn't undergo a study to see if it would be financially beneficial? From new subdivisions to retail locations ... everything goes through a financial analysis. Come on now, folks!
I don't see how bus shelters that incorporate the amenities I suggested are anything less than "permanent". Buses can operate in the same ways that subways do. Buses could be far more user-friendly.
It seems to me that the most effective bus system would incorporate major express routes (with larger buses and perhaps dedicated lanes) that operated between "hubs" much like a metro rail. Riders could transfer to smaller buses on shorter routes once they reached their hub.
I don't understand what the problem is with this sort of "out-of-the-box thinking". I think that a bus system like the one I've described is simply the best way to make the "Transit Map" that Cincy-Rise posted a reality. The cost of building those rail lines would be enormous. Using or expanding existing roads for bus lanes would likely be far more cost effective.
Of course, I believe that the best way to make a public transit system is for it to be privately owned (the subways in New York, the light rails in Chicago, and the trolley-cars in San Fransisco were originally privately owned before the governments took ownership). But, that's another story for another day.
Bus routes with fancy stops still do not equate to permanent routes. Developers want something permanent. Again, there are reasons maps do not include bus routes, but include streetcars and lightrail. I can put my condo on the MLS, advertise "near bus route" and have to update the MLS in two months, only to update it again 3 months later ... "near bus route." this isn't far fetched at all and history says so.
The express lane is a great idea, except that its pros do not come close to lightrails pros. One is, here we go ... now we go back to adding another lane ... two is a bus is limited to length and size. Cars can be added or taken away from streetcars/lightrail depending on traffic or events.
If it is Monday morning between 7 and 9 a.m. you could have more cars per train than on a Sunday at 3 p.m. If Oktoberfest is going on and half a million people are converging upon Downtown over 3 days, you could add more cars per train to accommodate the traffic. These examples plus a train or streetcar can carry more people than a bus can add to the positives.
And to top things off, we are giving people options ... something that they currently do not have (or are extremely limited to). For instance, I cannot ride the bus to work and back ... I have tried and because of where I work, there are no options for me.
Remember folks, I'm not saying that we shouldn't have busses or interstates, I'm simply saying that we should use all of these modes of transportation to benefit us as a region.
*Please do us a favor and try to read through everyone's post. The point or issue may have already been addressed. A lot of us are repeating ourselves over and over.
Three of every four dollars of PERCEIVED benefit of a rail system come from theoretical development benefit, i.e. the increased value of property around the rail line and increased taxes from the increased value. I am an owner of a little of that property and I don't believe it. Predictions to the contrary are just that. Its just like UC's study that Paul Brown Stadium would revitalize downtown and attract all those young progressives who claim to want these amenities. BS.
And, I don't want to ride on a train anywhere. I don't know anyone who would like to do so. If I was graduating from law school today, I might like to live in the city and take a bus or a downtown shuttle a few blocks from home to an office tower, but that's it. Sitting on a commuter train with hundreds of strangers and dozens of weirdos isn't even on the list of things I'm willing to do at 6pm every day. One of the best reasons to live in Cincinnati is because you don't have to get on a train from work and then get on a bus and then walk 2 blocks to get home. I rode the trolley every day as a youth, the bus every day as an adult and trains in most major cities I've visited. Romance about this all you want, this isn't Bavaria. Trains and indeed all public transportation, are often crowded, too hot (or cold) dirty, smelly, irritating, and in some places dangerous. Cincinnati has plenty of affordable places to live where a commuter will not experience traffic jams, can park at both ends of his trip, and will spend no more than 15 minutes on the whole commute.
Infrastucture moneys are better spent making our neighborhoods cleaner, safer, and more attractive. Not squandering them on expensive toys for politicians and urban planners (who are almost always wrong about these things).
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