Cincinnati Streetcars (Cleveland: city hall, transfer to, neighborhoods)

[Cincy-Rise]

Originally Posted by Hartwell Girl

lol...I will say that my 17 year old didnt get his licence till this year and I believe it was because it was much more fun to find around with mom driving while he slept in the passenger seat with ipod headphones on.
Now that he has one, him and his friends drive all over the place...

I guess what you are really trying to say is that your son is not of the majority, no?

[Cincy-Rise]

Originally Posted by wilson1010

I still like my economic analysis. If streetcars were all that wonderful, why do they need subsidies for most of the cost of their operation? One would think that something that desireable would not need to be foisted on a resistant public by greedy politicians operating with play money. I just think that we have changed as a society and we don't need what a street car or a commuter train has to offer. And, it will only be a few more years before our cars will be controlled by the highway we are on as to speed, distance between vehicles, braking, etc. That efficiency will reduce traffic accidents and tie ups and further reduce the need for public transportation. To tell you the truth, I value the privacy I get on my short commute. I can listen to what I want on the radio or cd player, scratch where it itches, relax from the day's stresses, etc. I wouldn't get on a train if they had free dinner.

Of course, if I let my not so altruistic self come out, I wouldn't mind making a bunch of other idiots ride public transportation so I didn't have to deal with them in traffic. But that doesn't seem like a good reason to support it: so that others may be punished by having to ride on a commuter train.

Your argument has many flaws. Your point is, if it's profitable, then it does not need to be subsidized.

Hell, even your cell-phone is and after about 6 months, it becomes one of the most profitable items you own.

Anything that has a ROR of 1-to-4 is profitable ... whether that's a piece of gum to a new skyscraper.

Remember, Cincinnati isn't inventing a streetcar or idea of running one ... they're already in exensistance. If you don't like the Portland example, then ask yourself why Milwaukkee is chomping at the bits to get a system built ... another similar-sized city.

This isn't about you or me ... this is about having options. I do not like having conversations like this when so many points are being ignored.

Please, someone comment on some points I've brought up, I'd love to here your opinions:

-Whether your parking in the parking lot of Walmart to buying a condo ... that single space to park your car cost YOU money.

-Gas will not remain cheap, and when I say cheap I mean $3.00/gallon.

-Money that is allocated for public transit cannot be used for the homeless, what are you doing to change this?

-Cars, especially SUV's are becoming less and less popular, even Nissan's CEO stated the popularity of the automobile is at an all-time low ... why do you think this is?

-What happens in 10 years? Do we add 2 more lanes to I75? When is enough, enough? When we start tearing down people's homes?

-Why does a city the size of Cincinnati have the nation's 6th worst traffic?

-Why are cities that currently have rail transit allocating money to expand existing lines?

Thank you for your time.

Bottom line for everyone commenting here ... if you can show me a study that defunks HDR and UC's economic impact study, I'd love to see it.


... btw, I didn't curse God ... ... read my status.

[Wilson513]

I remember UC's economic impact study on Paul Brown Stadium before we wasted a half billion dollars on that debacle. They showed people shopping at Sak's and then going over to catch a football game. Hehe.

[Hartwell Girl]

UC economic predicition for our City revenue was way off too (but I also place blame with council for spending money in a budget that they were not sure would add up...)

[Hartwell Girl]

I'm sorry, I wanted to add my 2cent on this...please dont take this personally, this is just how I feel about these issues...

-Gas will not remain cheap, and when I say cheap I mean $3.00/gallon.
so I will shop closer to home...I dont travel as it is...plus--alternative fuel/vehicles
-Money that is allocated for public transit cannot be used for the homeless, what are you doing to change this?
I never wanted it allocated for homeless, they get enough money out of the Citys budget NOT to mention the housing complex about to be built....I say when is enough enough for that issue...

-Cars, especially SUV's are becoming less and less popular, even Nissan's CEO stated the popularity of the automobile is at an all-time low ... why do you think this is?
because auto makers cant afford to make them anymore and they are being pushed to make more green autos...I dont want one...I feel much safer in my truck than sitting on the ground looking at a trucks bumper--plus those smart cars can fit in the back of my truck. I think autos are at an all time low because people dont have the money or jobs to buy them.

-What happens in 10 years? Do we add 2 more lanes to I75? When is enough, enough? When we start tearing down people's homes?
yes, that is the plan...its not like we are discussing I-71---I 75 is a major highway which is travelled by a lot more than locals

-Why does a city the size of Cincinnati have the nation's 6th worst traffic?
Engineer Brayshaw & the planners before him are your answers to that one...great planning...
-Why are cities that currently have rail transit allocating money to expand existing lines?
Because stimulus money is being passed out like candy on Halloween night....

[flash3780]

It seems to me that Cincinnati does, in fact, have a public transportation problem - right now, it's barely usable. However, it seems to me that a streetcar wouldn't help the problem because of their limited scope (they can only go where the tracks go... and tracks are expensive). A bus system could be a better solution because it uses the existing infrastructure. However, the system we have now is confusing at best.

When I sit down and think about the biggest problems with the bus system, I come up with:
1. It's difficult to figure out how to get from where I am to where I want to be (especially if I'm from out of town)
2. I don't know how to pay for the bus until the bus pulls up. How do I know if I can afford to ride?
3. It's cold/snowy/rainy/hot/windy outside - who wants to stand around and wait for a bus?
4. When's the next bus arrive?

I propose that those problems could all be solved by building cleaner, smarter bus shelters, that provide riders with route maps, time to next arrival, shelter from the elements, ticket machines, and possibly heat. I'd bet you could build quite a few userfriendly bus shelters for the price of a streetcar.

[Cincyfan79]

I don't thinking busing is or ever will be the answer to public transportation here. Not trying to offend anyone, but buses here are primarily used by poorer people that don't have a car or older people that can't/don't want to drive. Most people, including myself, don't want to ride the bus. Taking the bus around downtown is one thing but for someone commuting from Mason or Florence it's not feasible time wise. When you give someone a permanently designated route and times they're more likely to use it and since it's permanent can help spur development. It's hard to explain but in my experience people that live outside of the city have absolutely no desire to ride the bus.

I agree with Cincy-Rise, we cannot keep expanding highways. It's not the answer and is so much more expensive than public transportation, not to mention the maintenance. I would have loved to seen the 2002 light rail proposal passed, we could be utilizing the first line today. I know it's very expensive but light rail seems to actually get people of all walks of life to use it and could save billions in highway projects. It could be the real solution to transportation in the area but I think that idea is dead for a long time.

The streetcar system will work downtown and uptown and I support it. It will not solve our interstate congestion problem and as I understand it, it's not something you would really expand to the burbs to bring in people because it's too slow. I guess I'll just take what I can get, maybe if it works out people will be more open minded for light rail one day WAY down the road.

[Wilson513]

Originally Posted by Cincyfan79

I agree with Cincy-Rise, we cannot keep expanding highways. It's not the answer and is so much more expensive than public transportation, not to mention the maintenance. I would have loved to seen the 2002 light rail proposal passed, we could be utilizing the first line today. I know it's very expensive but light rail seems to actually get people of all walks of life to use it and could save billions in highway projects. It could be the real solution to transportation in the area but I think that idea is dead for a long time.

I think you have it backwards. Commuter trains are a lot more expensive than cars and highways. The cost of adding a lane of Xway is around $3-5mm/mile. This moves 1500 to 2000 cars per hour, certainly comparable to a commuter train. A commuter train costs $50 to 100mm per mile to build. The operating cost of a commuter train is probably higher than a car on a per mile per person basis not even considering more than one person per car. Its just that the train commuter saves money per trip that is subsidized by other taxpayers.

This tells me that commuter trains are maybe 10-20 times as expensive to build and operate than new highway lanes. We would save money by getting fleets of chauffered limos as opposed to commuter trains.

[Cincy-Rise]

Comments so far ... shortsightedness. No vision and absolutely zero long-term vision.

What's funny about this thread that I've noticed and that I'm banking on none of you catching is that most of you are bringing up solutions that are other posters problems with rail transit. Major contradictions going on here.

Originally Posted by Hartwell Girl

I'm sorry, I wanted to add my 2cent on this...please dont take this personally, this is just how I feel about these issues...

-Gas will not remain cheap, and when I say cheap I mean $3.00/gallon.
so I will shop closer to home...I dont travel as it is...plus--alternative fuel/vehicles[/color]

Again, this is NOT about you. This is about folks having options. You bring up helping the less fortunate, but your post suggest otherwise. We all know older vehicles are more likely to have mechanical issues, so what does one do? Purchase a new car? How does this along with spending $7,000 a year to own a car become feasible to someone struggling to make it? Why should someone with a fixed income help pay for Walmart's parking spaces? I'm lost?

How Much Does Your Car Really Cost You??: GoArticles.com (http://www.goarticles.com/cgi-bin/showa.cgi?C=1219206 - broken link)

-Money that is allocated for public transit cannot be used for the homeless, what are you doing to change this?
I never wanted it allocated for homeless, they get enough money out of the Citys budget NOT to mention the housing complex about to be built....I say when is enough enough for that issue...

So, you have a problem with public transit being paid for by the public, but you have no problem with our current gas tax? ... not to mention road/highway/interstate tax? I'm curious ... how often does Hartwellgirl traverse Colerain Ave.? Central Ave.? Harrison Ave.?

Private Transit does have a better ring, doesn't it?

-Cars, especially SUV's are becoming less and less popular, even Nissan's CEO stated the popularity of the automobile is at an all-time low ... why do you think this is?
because auto makers cant afford to make them anymore and they are being pushed to make more green autos...I dont want one...I feel much safer in my truck than sitting on the ground looking at a trucks bumper--plus those smart cars can fit in the back of my truck. I think autos are at an all time low because people dont have the money or jobs to buy them.

This is what we call selective reading ... at its best.

-What happens in 10 years? Do we add 2 more lanes to I75? When is enough, enough? When we start tearing down people's homes?
yes, that is the plan...its not like we are discussing I-71---I 75 is a major highway which is travelled by a lot more than locals

So ... you're saying that it won't need to be done to 71, 275, 471, etc.? If not, look to the Brent Spence Bridge! I'm sure they planned for 3 times the traffic when it was designed. Sure, all part of the plan. Never ever assume this won't happen and until it's your own neighborhood, I'm sure you will not care.

You cannot just keep adding and adding more and more lanes. That's asinine.

-Why does a city the size of Cincinnati have the nation's 6th worst traffic?
Engineer Brayshaw & the planners before him are your answers to that one...great planning...

Or ... we are one of the largest metro's in the country to not have LRT. Hmmm...

There are 32,000 parking spaces in Downtown ALONE (not counting Blue Ash, Sharonville, West Chester, Western Hills, Montgomery, Kenwood, etc., etc.) ... not counting on-street parking. Do you really think by removing 15,000 vehicles out of Downtown and the vicinity would not relief congestion in the slightest? I'm lost for words here ...



"Calgary averages about 600 passengers per operating mile ...Calgary Transit estimates that its LRT operating costs are only 27 cents per ride, versus $1.50 per ride on its buses."

... this is just sick, but doable ... however, this is impossible to the fullest extent in a highway only city.

Btw, busses will yield to the same traffic as cars do. It would be cool if they could hover over the parking lots on 71/75. Light Rail and Heavy Rail typically has the right-of-way.

Wilson also has a case of the selective reading feva.


flash3780, the PROBLEM with busses is that their routes can change so frequently, this is not positive ... and good luck find an urban planner that would agree with this statement. Folks, this isn't rocket science.

There is a reason why bus stops are usually never placed on city maps, but streetcars are.

Another plus is the cars that can be added to a streetcar. Depending on traffic, events, etc. multiple cars can be added to a single train.

[Cincy-Rise]