Weather Chat Thread (wettest, colder, live, Australia)

[Ethereal]

Originally Posted by Joe90

My sea level diurnal range is 12C, and areas only 20km inland from here have 14C diurnal ranges, and all are very oceanic climates

Maybe they are continental-influenced oceanic climates in the likes of Orange NSW and Ouse Tasmania. They won't be subtropical because they're just too cool in the summer, unlike Wagga Wagga and Dubbo (which feature hot summers). That's why I think heat should also be regarded as a subtropical influence, not just wind direction.

My diurnal range is higher than the US east coast at the same latitude and altitude.

Perhaps so, but as I said, heat is also a contributing factor on what makes a climate subtropical. Also, unlike many oceanic climates (which are seemingly stable, including yours), I believe that US east coast is more prone to extreme temperatures.

It does -hotter in summer, and colder in winter

Aren't Wagga Wagga and Dubbo hotter in summer and colder in winter? For starters, their summer-winter temperature difference (which is 18C-20C) is greater than Nelson's (10C) and even London's (14C). Isn't their temperature variation an apparent continental attribute?

Nelson has the lowest diurnal range in this area, and is a consequence of the weather station being surrounded by sea on three sides. Biggest diurnal range within an hour drive of Nelson are 15C.

Fair enough. As I mentioned, these places can always be continental (or highland "subtropical", Cwb)-influenced oceanic climates akin to those in NSW highlands in the Blue Mountains. Those sort of peripheral oceanic climates with cold nights can exist (a la, Canberra and Katoomba). But they shouldn't have really hot summers. Which is why I'm making the argument.

It's not the diurnal range, but the temperature. Continentality doesn't explain cool summer nights -a source of cool air does

Can't the two be mutually inclusive? And if continentality doesn't explain the cool summer minimums, then how do you explain the warm summer minimums of Ulladulla? This city is on the same latitude of Wagga Wagga, but it's on the coast. Surely Wagga is not more oceanic than Ulladulla?

If you're talking about just temperatures and classification, then yes it's Cfa, no argument. But if you're trying to understand the underlying pattern that gives a place like Wagga it's climate over the year- then there's an elephant in the room (cool summer minimums), that only has one explanation -a source of frequent cool air.

It's one elephant in the room, though - The cool air. Don't you reckon it still has more prominent features that are "un-oceanic" (consistently hot summers and frequent thunderstorms) which somehow nullify the others?

What makes you think that it isn't continentality giving inland NSW such cool nights? If that wasn't the case, then why are the coastal NSW cities on the same latitude warm at summer nights? Don't you think the ocean is playing a role at making coasts warmer than inland areas? Isn't a coastal, sea-moderated climate more of an "oceanic influence" rather?

Originally Posted by lab276

What places specifically though? I'm not seeing much more than 11C ranges, although I'm only looking at the biggest cities which are all coastal. And i'm not sure I'd call 16C mins in summer cool, it appears to be warmer than anywhere in NZ.

Alexandra could be one of them. It ranges 15C in summer and 10C in winter. In contrast to Wagga Wagga's 16C and 10C, and Dubbo's 17C and 13C, respectively. But again, Alexandra is a continental influenced, oceanic/semi arid hybrid. So its temperature variations shouldn't be too surprising. Also, its summer highs are oceanic in nature. Maybe if they were 30C+ I would have a different perspective.

[ghost-likin]

None of thoses beat Villa Reynolds,this small town are located at 33S/490m altitude.

It has one of most continental climate of SH,with a great annual range ,January averages 31/15.2 and in July 17.4/0.6C.
All time record lows there is 44.1C/111F and -14.6C/5.7F,it are located on a 8a/7b hardness zone.

The problem is,even in the middle of Argentina,it yet have cool average minimuns in January,I first trought that it happens because of the dryness,but them I seen that they average 114mm in January,but yet their low is 15.2C.

I think its the Southern Hemisphere "cool" athmosphere that make thoses places have such cool averages even in the warmest month,If you take for example cities in North America and East Asia at same latitude/altitude,their averages are much higher.

[Joe90]

Originally Posted by lab276

What places specifically though? I'm not seeing much more than 11C ranges, although I'm only looking at the biggest cities which are all coastal. And i'm not sure I'd call 16C mins in summer cool, it appears to be warmer than anywhere in NZ.

Plenty of places. Tapawera in my own necks of the woods - 0nly 20km from here and 14.5C in summer and 13 C in winter and lower in altitude than those places.

Originally Posted by Ethereal

Maybe they are continental-influenced oceanic climates in the likes of Orange NSW and Ouse Tasmania. They won't be subtropical because they're just too cool in the summer, unlike Wagga Wagga and Dubbo (which feature hot summers). That's why I think heat should also be regarded as a subtropical influence, not just wind direction.

I don't think 13C in December for an average low, and 8 months with an average low below 10C is heat though.

Perhaps so, but as I said, heat is also a contributing factor on what makes a climate subtropical. Also, unlike many oceanic climates (which are seemingly stable, including yours), I believe that US east coast is more prone to extreme temperatures.

Sure, but my climate still has a higher diurnal range than those places, so diurnal range by itself means little.

Aren't Wagga Wagga and Dubbo hotter in summer and colder in winter? For starters, their summer-winter temperature difference (which is 18C-20C) is greater than Nelson's (10C) and even London's (14C). Isn't their temperature variation an apparent continental attribute?

Sure, they've got a bigger range, as one would expect for places so far inland. That doesn't offer an explanation as to why they get so summer minimums are that low though. You mentioned east Asia and the eastern US -those places would never see 8 months below 10C minimum at that altitude and latitude -it's because they don't have the source of cool air.

Fair enough. As I mentioned, these places can always be continental (or highland "subtropical", Cwb)-influenced oceanic climates akin to those in NSW highlands in the Blue Mountains. Those sort of peripheral oceanic climates with cold nights can exist (a la, Canberra and Katoomba). But they shouldn't have really hot summers. Which is why I'm making the argument.

Altitude and geography are bigger factors for Canberra and Katoomba.

Can't the two be mutually inclusive? And if continentality doesn't explain the cool summer minimums, then how do you explain the warm summer minimums of Ulladulla? This city is on the same latitude of Wagga Wagga, but it's on the coast. Surely Wagga is not more oceanic than Ulladulla?

Ulladulla is both more Oceanic and more subtropical.

It's one elephant in the room, though - The cool air. Don't you reckon it still has more prominent features that are "un-oceanic" (consistently hot summers and frequent thunderstorms) which somehow nullify the others?

No, because consistently cool summer nights need an explanation, and subtropical influence doesn't give that.

What makes you think that it isn't continentality giving inland NSW such cool nights? If that wasn't the case, then why are the coastal NSW cities on the same latitude warm at summer nights? Don't you think the ocean is playing a role at making coasts warmer than inland areas? Isn't a coastal, sea-moderated climate more of an "oceanic influence" rather?

Because there is no explanation as to where the cold air comes from.

[Ethereal]

Originally Posted by Joe90

I don't think 13C in December for an average low, and 8 months with an average low below 10C is heat though.

But why discredit the warm highs? We're talking about 30C+ summers highs in here. Isn't that heat?

Sure, but my climate still has a higher diurnal range than those places, so diurnal range by itself means little.

Perhaps it does (again, highland influenced oceanic climates can exist). But you do not have those hot summers. Can you please link a source (or a Wiki table) to your climate?

Sure, they've got a bigger range, as one would expect for places so far inland. That doesn't offer an explanation as to why they get so summer minimums are that low though. You mentioned east Asia and the eastern US -those places would never see 8 months below 10C minimum at that altitude and latitude -it's because they don't have the source of cool air.

To be fair, most of eastern Australia has relatively low summer minimums, at least in contrast to those in the northern hemisphere of the same latitude (east coast US). There are no large landmasses in the southern hemisphere that can trap heat in the summer. But this, you would know.

No, because consistently cool summer nights need an explanation, and subtropical influence doesn't give that.

Isn't the fact they are rather inland they have those cool summer nights? Subtropical influence is apparent, as I said - Hot summers and frequent thunderstorms. That's the "subtropical part". Sure, Wagga and Dubbo are not true subtropical climates, but to call them full oceanic climates? Doesn't seem rather natural to me.

Originally Posted by ghost-likin

None of thoses beat Villa Reynolds,this small town are located at 33S/490m altitude.

It has one of most continental climate of SH,with a great annual range ,January averages 31/15.2 and in July 17.4/0.6C.
All time record lows there is 44.1C/111F and -14.6C/5.7F,it are located on a 8a/7b hardness zone.

Why must you turn everything into a competition? These "[insert SA climate] beats your climate" posts are getting very bleary. Not to mention, nobody's talking about the most continental climates in the southern hemisphere. Please read the previous page if you want to know what we were discussing.

[ghost-likin]

Originally Posted by Ethereal

But why discredit the warm highs? We're talking about 30C+ summers highs in here. Isn't that heat?


Perhaps it does (again, highland influenced oceanic climates can exist). But you do not have those hot summers. Can you please link a source (or a Wiki table) to your climate?


To be fair, most of eastern Australia has relatively low summer minimums, at least in contrast to those in the northern hemisphere of the same latitude (east coast US). There are no large landmasses in the southern hemisphere that can trap heat in the summer. But this, you would know.


Isn't the fact they are rather inland they have those cool summer nights? Subtropical influence is apparent, as I said - Hot summers and frequent thunderstorms. That's the "subtropical part". Sure, Wagga and Dubbo are not true subtropical climates, but to call them full oceanic climates? Doesn't seem rather natural to me.


Why must you turn everything into a competition? These "[insert SA climate] beats your climate" posts are getting very bleary. Not to mention, nobody's talking about the most continental climates in the southern hemisphere. Please read the previous page if you want to know what we were discussing.

Why did you erased the last part? There I talked about the reason for lows in summer here in SH be cooler than similar latitudes on the NH.

[Ethereal]

Originally Posted by ghost-likin

Why did you erased the last part? There I talked about the reason for lows in summer here in SH be cooler than similar latitudes on the NH.

Because, ironically, the erased part was actually relevant to this discussion. I only highlighted the extraneous material that you brought up to tell you that it's not needed here since we're not talking about the most continental climate.

[Joe90]

Originally Posted by Ethereal

But why discredit the warm highs? We're talking about 30C+ summers highs in here. Isn't that heat?

Sure, during the day.

Perhaps it does (again, highland influenced oceanic climates can exist). But you do not have those hot summers.Can you please link a source (or a Wiki table) to your climate?

I don't think there can be such a thing as a highland influenced oceanic climate. Not sure what your point is with not having hot summers.

To be fair, most of eastern Australia has relatively low summer minimums, at least in contrast to those in the northern hemisphere of the same latitude (east coast US). There are no large landmasses in the southern hemisphere that can trap heat in the summer. But this, you would know.

Gosh! -isn't that the definition of oceanic?

Isn't the fact they are rather inland they have those cool summer nights? Subtropical influence is apparent, as I said - Hot summers and frequent thunderstorms. That's the "subtropical part". Sure, Wagga and Dubbo are not true subtropical climates, but to call them full oceanic climates? Doesn't seem rather natural to me.

To be honest, I don't really give them a name at all, but just don't think of them as subtropical -if there's one feature that isn't subtropical above all else, it's cool summer nights


These are the old normals.

[Ethereal]

Originally Posted by Joe90

Sure, during the day.

So you can say the days have a subtropical influence, whilst the nights don't. After all, the climate of daytime shouldn't be discredited.

I don't think there can be such a thing as a highland influenced oceanic climate. Not sure what your point is with not having hot summers.

I guess I meant the opposite - "oceanic influenced, highland climate". They also call those "subtropical highland". But then again, that's Koppen for you. I meant that these places (including yours), which have high diurnal ranges, don't even have hot summers. So they're still oceanic.

Gosh! -isn't that the definition of oceanic?

Technically, yes. But by that logic, every place in the southern hemisphere - heck, even tropical areas, should be "oceanic" since they don't see such large temperature contrasts.

To be honest, I don't really give them a name at all, but just don't think of them as subtropical -if there's one feature that isn't subtropical above all else, it's cool summer nights

Finally I agree. Because, as you can see, it isn't just black and white. Their summer nights are a "deviation" from the subtropical definition. But to call them full-fledged oceanic climates because of that one deviation is where I digress.

These are the old normals.

Thanks. It seems like a normal oceanic climate. Yes, nights are a bit too cool all year round. But its yearly highs are quite oceanic in essence, if that makes sense.

[EverBlack]

Average lows below freezing in July (Southern Hemisphere) with population and elevation.

La Rinconada, Peru: -11.2 °C (50,000) (5,100 m)
Uyuni, Bolivia: -11.0 °C (10,460) (3,700 m)
Juliaca, Peru: -7.5 °C (225,146) (3,825 m)
La Quiaca, Argentina: -7.4 °C (14,753) (3,442 m)
Oruro, Bolivia: -5.0 °C (264,700) (3,735 m)
Potosí, Bolivia: -4.0 °C (240,966) (4,067 m)
Maquinchao, Argentina: -3.8 °C (2,494) (888 m)
Puerto Natales, Chile: -3.0 °C (18,505) (3 m)
Lake Tekapo, New Zealand: -3.0 °C (369) (?)
Esquel, Argentina: -2.9 °C (32,234) (563 m)
El Calafate, Argentina: -2.8 °C (22,000) (199 m)
Cooma, Australia: -2.7 °C (6,301) (800 m)
Perito Moreno, Argentina: -2.7 °C (4,617) (517 m)
Balmaceda, Chile: -2.7 °C (456) (518 m)
Río Grande, Argentina: -2.6 (67,038) (0 m)
Paso de Indios, Argentina: -2.6 °C (1,087) (575 m)
Malargüe, Argentina: -2.5 °C (23,020) (1,402 m)
Alexandra, New Zealand: -2.4 °C (5,300) (?)
Río Gallegos, Argentina: -2.2 °C (97,742) (20 m)
Aliwal North, South Africa: -2.0 °C (35,153) (1,347 m)
San Martín de los Andes, Argentina: -2.0 °C (23,519) (640 m)
Bethlehem, South Africa: -2.0 °C (16,236) (1,700 m)
Bloemfontein, South Africa: -1.9 °C (747,431) (1,395 m)
Cabramurra, Australia: -1.8 °C (364) (1,488 m)
Miena, Australia: -1.8 °C (104) (1,052 m)
Ushuaia, Argentina: -1.7 °C (56,956) (23 m)
Queenstown, New Zealand: -1.7 °C (14,300) (310 m)
Cromwell, New Zealand: -1.5 °C (4,670) (?)
Puerto Santa Cruz, Argentina: -1.5 °C (3,397) (0 m)
Liawenee, Australia: -1.5 °C (303) (1,065 m)
Wanaka, New Zealand: -1.2 °C (7,850) (290 m)
Bombala, Australia: -1.2 °C (1,211) (705 m)
Punta Arenas, Chile: -1.1 °C (127,454) (34 m)
Cochrane, Chile: -1.0 °C (2,976) (199 m)
Calama, Chile: -0.9 °C (147,886) (2,260 m)
Manapouri, New Zealand: -0.7 °C (228) (200 m)
El Bolsón, Argentina: -0.5 °C (19,009) (422 m)
Puerto San Julián, Argentina: -0.4 °C (6,143) (1 m)
Bariloche, Argentina: -0.3 °C (130,000) (893 m)
Chile Chico, Chile: -0.3 °C (4,627) (214 m)
Tumbarumba, Australia: -0.2 °C (1,487) (645 m)
Canberra, Australia: -0.1 °C (381,488) (577 m)
Neuquén, Argentina: -0.1 °C (224,685) (260 m)

[Ethereal]

^Uyuni has to be the warmest Tundra climate.