Should WMATA extend its service to Baltimore to connect with the MTA? (Columbia: taxes, train)

[the resident09]

Originally Posted by bufflove

You just repeated me. There's nothing but low density suburbia between Greenbelt and BWI. Metro makes zero sense, especially considering PG already has plenty of underdeveloped stations. Any demand for increased density near transit on that side of the system can already be accomplished via existing infrastructure. Building even more underutilized stations even further out contributes exceptionally little and would be fiscally irresponsible, to say the least.

I did not.

Your quote... "It's still a nonsensical idea because there's nothing between Greenbelt and BWI."

My quote... "There's nonstop suburbia between Greenbelt and BWI, and MARC exists so there's plenty population, that would obviously increase."

We're fundamentally saying the opposite thing. There isn't "nothing" between Greenbelt and BWI. There's hundreds of thousands of residences and people living in between. Meaning there is legitimate population to be served by public transit. It's probably double the population living between the end of Silver Line Phase 1, to Ashburn. Adding Metro stops along a line running up Rt. 1 over to Ft. Meade or Arundel Mills until you reach the airport would be an instant call for further TOD and ridership.

[personone]

Originally Posted by bufflove

You just repeated me. There's nothing but low density suburbia between Greenbelt and BWI. Metro makes zero sense, especially considering PG already has plenty of underdeveloped stations. Any demand for increased density near transit on that side of the system can already be accomplished via existing infrastructure. Building even more underutilized stations even further out contributes exceptionally little and would be fiscally irresponsible, to say the least.

Completely agree. From a cost-benefit perspective it makes no sense, just for the sake of “connecting” the regions. Especially with remote/hybrid work, the ridership numbers between BWI and Greenbelt wouldn’t support it. Nowadays there just wouldn’t be enough people using the metro from BWI to Greenbelt if they built stops. Like you said, there is way too sprawled in that stretch.

[the resident09]

Originally Posted by personone

Completely agree. From a cost-benefit perspective it makes no sense, just for the sake of “connecting” the regions. Especially with remote/hybrid work, the ridership numbers between BWI and Greenbelt wouldn’t support it. Nowadays there just wouldn’t be enough people using the metro from BWI to Greenbelt if they built stops. Like you said, there is way too sprawled in that stretch.

Yea I certainly disagree, but to each their own. Greenbelt-BWI is way to sprawled out, but Herndon to Ashburn isn't?

The region is already "connected" by MARC, but I'm referring to a more precise route of connection, and higher frequencies. The point of adding Metro is to further densify or build up corridors of Rt. 1, Rt 197 or 198, as well as provide direct BWI airport service via Metro. If Reston-Herndon- Dulles- to Ashburn can support a Metro connection. Greenbelt- Konterra- Laurel-Ft. Meade-BWI easily could support it, the corridor certainly would over time have to add more jobs based there, and Metro would boost demand for that. The Silver Line runs down the middle of a freeway. Rt. 1 could actually be built up with more mixed use, and walk-ability if a tunneled Metro were there.

[908Boi]

I think Maryland needs to really invest in improving MARC service. the DC areas commuter rail is very underdeveloped. I don't think a Green Line extension to BWI is necessary at all but I do see the value in connecting WMATA to Baltimore Light Rail. I'd rather see Laurel and Columbia get Metro tbh.

[MidValleyDad]

The problem with improving MARC service is that CSX does not want anymore MARC trains on their lines. They are interested in Freight, Freight, and more Freight. As long as MARC is using CSX tracks there is not much chance of increasing the number of trains.

[bufflove]

Originally Posted by the resident09

I did not.

Your quote... "It's still a nonsensical idea because there's nothing between Greenbelt and BWI."

My quote... "There's nonstop suburbia between Greenbelt and BWI, and MARC exists so there's plenty population, that would obviously increase."

We're fundamentally saying the opposite thing. There isn't "nothing" between Greenbelt and BWI. There's hundreds of thousands of residences and people living in between. Meaning there is legitimate population to be served by public transit. It's probably double the population living between the end of Silver Line Phase 1, to Ashburn. Adding Metro stops along a line running up Rt. 1 over to Ft. Meade or Arundel Mills until you reach the airport would be an instant call for further TOD and ridership.

I assure you, we're saying the same thing: that far out there's "nonstop suburbia," i.e. nothing that would remotely necessitate or support dozens of miles of new heavy rail. I'm sorry to burst your bubble - especially because I'm as anti-car/sprawl as they come - but your suggestion is completely untethered from the reality of the situation, not to mention the basic principles of mass transit. There's no demand for it, there's no money for it, there's no political will for it, there's no need for it.

[Tarheelhombre]

Maybe the resurrection of the Baltimore Red Line will signal it’s possible to extend WMATA to BWI.

[ion475]

Originally Posted by MidValleyDad

The problem with improving MARC service is that CSX does not want anymore MARC trains on their lines. They are interested in Freight, Freight, and more Freight. As long as MARC is using CSX tracks there is not much chance of increasing the number of trains.

Yep...or for, let say, Brunswick Line. CSX IIRC wants a third track built if MARC wanted increase service - MARC said no...and here we are.

Investing in public transit infrastructure is definitely something I wish the state do more. Now that Mr. "Build more highway" Hogan is out it's time to take action (Although TBH I-270 DO need to be expanded...). Even within Baltimore the public transit is a joke, and would still be a joke even if they completed Red Line.

[Woodlands]

Originally Posted by ion475

Yep...or for, let say, Brunswick Line. CSX IIRC wants a third track built if MARC wanted increase service - MARC said no...and here we are.

Investing in public transit infrastructure is definitely something I wish the state do more. Now that Mr. "Build more highway" Hogan is out it's time to take action (Although TBH I-270 DO need to be expanded...). Even within Baltimore the public transit is a joke, and would still be a joke even if they completed Red Line.

There has been a slew of plans to expand MARC Service.. like extending the Camden Line from Camden Yards through the Howard Street Tunnel(once it is renovated) on out to Bayview adding stops on Charles St Near Hopkins and out by Coldstream Montebello; Adding an additional track between Washington and MD Line; and of course the new tunnel under West Baltimore. I saw one even for MARC to run through into NOVA which would be huge. All of these project will certainly improve regional commuting which benefits Baltimore.

As for the Red Line.. Do you think its best just to keep in on the surface and nix all the tunnels which drove up the cost?

I saw a concept that was generated by some advocates to keep in on the surface and to have the line from Woodlawn interlock with the Howard Street Line branch out from there to go out to Canton per the original plan. That would allow for a variety of new routes.. For example: Woodlawn to/from BWI and Hunt Valley or Canton to/from Hunt Valley and to BWI all via the existing line on Howard Street and all could be one seat rides if transfers are not desirable for the timetable. To me that provides a critical link by improving the existing system.

[ion475]

Originally Posted by Woodlands

There has been a slew of plans to expand MARC Service.. like extending the Camden Line from Camden Yards through the Howard Street Tunnel(once it is renovated) on out to Bayview adding stops on Charles St Near Hopkins and out by Coldstream Montebello; Adding an additional track between Washington and MD Line; and of course the new tunnel under West Baltimore. I saw one even for MARC to run through into NOVA which would be huge. All of these project will certainly improve regional commuting which benefits Baltimore.

As for the Red Line.. Do you think its best just to keep in on the surface and nix all the tunnels which drove up the cost?

I saw a concept that was generated by some advocates to keep in on the surface and to have the line from Woodlawn interlock with the Howard Street Line branch out from there to go out to Canton per the original plan. That would allow for a variety of new routes.. For example: Woodlawn to/from BWI and Hunt Valley or Canton to/from Hunt Valley and to BWI all via the existing line on Howard Street and all could be one seat rides if transfers are not desirable for the timetable. To me that provides a critical link by improving the existing system.

It's my biggest peeve with MARC anyway - plans, more plans, but never much action. I can only hope Moore focus on improving that.

Now, some of those MARC extension (i.e. to NOVA) are dependent on other projects, i.e. Long Bridge across Potomac (They're building a new one IIRC to make that section quadruple track) to Virginia, and station improvements in Delaware to extend MARC that way. Full-day service on both Camden Line and Brunswick Line had also been talk about for years...

Well, either those or just extend Metrorail up to Laurel, build a new line to Columbia (and pull HoCo ever closer to DC), and extend Red Line to Germantown area. But of course, right now they can't even get BRT done on those corridors...