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In this poll I voted in the negative manner since all I've personally experienced with suburbs here in Eastern Pennsylvania has been an unabashed lack of walkability, traffic congestion, a proliferation of chain fast food restaurants, drug stores, drive-thru banks, big-box stores, etc., and more of a "Stepford" mentality than one could shake a stick at. However, our friend Katiana enlightened me on this subject last year during a mini-argument of sorts that we had in which I, being a skeptic, finally decided to do some research into her own suburb of Louisville, CO and was surprised by what I saw. From MSN Virtual Earth you are able to see that just about every street, including cul-de-sacs, in her suburb are lined with sidewalks, nearly every subdivision is linked to another adjacent subdivision with some sort of walking/biking path, and in some circumstances schools, parks, houses of worship, and businesses are likewise within an easy walk of the residential areas. Contrast that with here in Eastern Pennsylvania where the incoming New Jerseyite transplants only care about "big" and "cheap," and you can see how it was so easy for me to have become so cynical about suburbs in general until I had my epiphany thanks to Katiana.
Gas prices near me are now $3.75/gallon or even higher at some stations. I'm certain they'll eclipse $4/gallon sometime in June. With fuel prices this high, how are suburbanites planning on sustaining their "drive my Hummer alone to the downtown office everyday" mentality? I hear suburbanites all around me whining about the fuel prices, but when I tell them that it's their own fault for moving into a sprawling, poorly-planned area instead of one with a better mass transit system, sidewalks, bike lanes, etc. they shut up. Americans feel they are "entitled" to each own their own vehicle and congest our freeways whereas I feel differently. What are we going to do when we finally exhaust 100% of our global supply of gasoline? Are we going to run Hummers, Escalades, Navigators, and other shameful, wasteful suburban vehicles on horse radish? Toothpaste? Bubble gum? Navel lint? I myself am tiring of battling gridlock daily with soccer moms in SUVs wearing sunglasses on cloudy days and yammering into cell phones here in the suburbs, so for me taking the plunge into a thriving metropolis like Scranton is a no brainer. Instead of only being able to walk to a Wendy's by playing "Frog-ger" by running across four lanes of traffic, I'll be able to SAFELY walk my family to the movie theater, cultural center, library, parks, schools, church, restaurants, coffee houses, book store, pubs, etc.
Post-WWII suburbs on the East Coast are downright awful unless you're selfish and don't care about your carbon footprint. Historic inner suburbs and most post-WWII suburbs west of Chicago seem to be more forward-thinking in terms of keeping pedestrians in mind instead of automobiles EXCLUSIVELY. The newer suburbs in my area are only for people who think they are too good for the city or those who want to impress their colleagues with McMansions that have master bathrooms as large as most living rooms. On the contrary as a young professional I'd be more impressed by someone who spent less money on residential extravagances and instead donated the balance to a charity aimed at helping underprivileged children. I hate to say this, but whenever I hear of a case of eco-terrorism in which McMansions under construction are torched to the ground, I smirk and think "good for them." I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks America has become too obsessed with materiality.
I can argue with you non-stop and you can too. I don't think we can ever agree.
A car dependability test is simple: Do you need to own a car to live in a place 'x' or not? If you answer is yes, but there are some things you can do without a car, you are still dependent on a car. If you can live in a place completely without a car then you are not dependent on a car.
As far as blandness, conformity, keeping up with the Joneses and income segregation in suburbs (the white suburbs are not just white suburbs, they are 'upper class', 'middle class' or 'lower middle class' burbs), I can write an essay about it. You don't seem to experience it, great for you. I am not going to make a blanket statement that EVERYONE will experience this living in a suburb. I am not going to say ALL suburbs are like what I describe. Although I am pretty surprised that for all this time you lived in your small town none of your neighbors asked you what you do for a living when you have a conversation with them. Nobody will certainly ask you to show them your tax return, but people will still have a pretty good idea about your level of income and education because they'll inquire about what you do, where you are from, what college you went to, your marital status etc.
I am not going to argue about your quality of life, I think personally, that you have a great lifestyle. You also maybe in a different age group (if you have an adult daughter) and see things differently because of this, because of different priorities in your life and having more established homestead.
I will never agree with you on all these points that you listed about the car and about the stuff to do in the burbs. You still have to drive to the city to do some stuff that you simply can't do in the burbs, whereas living in the city you are less likely to venture into the burbs unless you have friends, family there or on the way for nature get-aways.
Let's just agree that we'll disagree, we are obviously not on the same page. How about cats? You seem to like cats, I love them too, why don't we just agree on that one The best part of living in the burbs is that there are sometimes cute kittens there that neighbor's kids show around the area and will let you play with.
Well, If we start talking about cats we will probably get infractions for hijacking the thread and it might get closed.
I have no problem with someone wanting to live in the city, or on Mars for that matter. I just don't like it when people believe so many misconceptions about the suburbs. There have been many enumerated on this thread. As for economic segregation, the city has that, too. Every city.
I don't know where you picked up that no one in my town has ever asked me what I do for a living! It's certainly not true. A lot of my neighbors take their kids to the pediatric office where I work; when I worked for the health dept a lot of neighbors came to the immunization clinic, ditto when I worked for the Visitng Nurse Association. It's almost an occupational hazard, because I can't really talk about patients outside of work due to confidentiality issues. But virtually ALL my neighbors know what kind of work I do and also what my DH does (but then almost everyone in metro Denver works in IT, LOL). I don't know how you picked that up from any post of mine. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else??
Regarding soulless suburbs, here is a little history of some of the Denver suburbs I wrote up during another one of these discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana
A little Colorado history.
Wheat Ridge was founded as a community in 1859. It was a farming community that supported Denver and nearby mining communities, and became the largest producer of carnations worldwide until the mid-20th century. Wheat Ridge did not incorporate until August of 1969, when it was faced with annexation by surrounding cities. It currently has three National Historical Sites and one Colorado State Historical Site. The Wheat Ridge Historical Society, in cooperation with the Colorado Historical Society and the City of Wheat Ridge, is in the process of restoring one of the first log cabins still on the same site. The building, which is known as the Baugh Cabin, is anticipated to have restoration completed before 2008.
In 1870, the Colorado Central Railroad laid tracks through the area on its route up Clear Creek to the gold fields. On 1870-12-01, Benjamin F. Wadsworth and Louis A. Reno platted a townsite along the railroad which Wadsworth's wife, Mary, named Arvada in honor of her brother-in-law, Hiram Arvada Haskin. Benjamin Wadsworth became the first postmaster of Arvada. Colorado was granted statehood on 1876-08-01, and the Town of Arvada was formally incorporated on 1904-08-24. A vibrant agricultural community, Arvada claimed the title "Celery Capital of the World."
Arvada grew rapidly during the latter half of the 20th Century. Arvada became a Statutory City on 1951-10-31, and a Home Rule Municipality on 1963-07-23. By the end of the millennium, the population of Arvada had exceeded 100,000.
The town of Louisville dates back to the start of the Welch Mine in 1877, the first coal mine in an area of Boulder and Weld counties known as the Northern Coalfield. The town was named for Louis Nawatny, a local landowner who platted his land and named it for himself. Incorporation came several years later, in 1882.[3]
The Northern Coalfield proved to be highly productive, and eventually some 30 different mines operated within the current boundaries of Louisville, though not all at the same time. During the years of peak production (1907-09) twelve mines were in operation in Louisville, including the Acme Mine whose two million tons of coal came from directly beneath the center of town. The presence of many independent mining companies in Louisville saved the town from becoming a "company town", wholly owned and dominated by a single mining company.[3]
Coal from the Northern Coalfield was weak and brittle, so mining only took place in winter months. During the summers the miners played in numerous local baseball leagues, and engaged themselves in digging basement bunkers and tunnels to connect the town's 22 saloons. These tunnels served not merely as a convenience during the snowy winter months, but also as an escape route whenever state or federal troops arrived to quell labor unrest and strikes by the United Mine Workers of America.[4]
From the time of Colorado's first strike in 1883 there were frequent labor strikes in Louisville, and the town was frequently placed under martial law. Mercenaries were hired by mining companies to spray machine gun fire across the line of thirteen saloons on Front Street, while the town's residents hid in their basements and tunnels. After the Ludlow massacre and brutal violence in Louisville in 1914, President Woodrow Wilson signed a law prohibiting the use of immigrants by mining companies to break strikes.[4]
Eventually the coal remaining in the Northen Coalfield became increasingly uneconomical to mine, and the last coal mines operating in Louisville closed in the 1950s.
Lafayette was founded in 1888 by Mary Miller. Lafayette quickly became a part of the coal mining boom that all of eastern Boulder and southwestern Weld counties were experiencing, with the Cannon and Simpson mines being the largest and most productive. By 1914 Lafayette was a booming town with two banks, four hotels and a brickworks. Lafayette was also the location of a power station that served Louisville, Boulder, Longmont and Fort Collins.
In 1891, Donald Fletcher founded the town of Fletcher on the plains east of Denver, naming the town after himself. The real estate tycoon left two years later, leaving the new residents with bond payments for non-existent water. The town was renamed Aurora (Latin for dawn) in 1907, and remained a small community until after World War II.
Castle Rock was founded in 1874 when the eastern Douglas County border was redrawn to its present location. Castle Rock was chosen as the county seat because of its central location.
From Wikipedia
Denver's old suburbs do not have a lot of stately old buildings because people were living in log cabins and miner's cottages at the time.
As far as living carless, here is a thread that some may find interesting. The guy that started it uses public transit extensively (though not exclusively), and lives in the Denver suburb of Arvada.
Well, If we start talking about cats we will probably get infractions for hijacking the thread and it might get closed.
I have no problem with someone wanting to live in the city, or on Mars for that matter. I just don't like it when people believe so many misconceptions about the suburbs. There have been many enumerated on this thread. As for economic segregation, the city has that, too. Every city.
I don't know where you picked up that no one in my town has ever asked me what I do for a living! It's certainly not true. A lot of my neighbors take their kids to the pediatric office where I work; when I worked for the health dept a lot of neighbors came to the immunization clinic, ditto when I worked for the Visitng Nurse Association. It's almost an occupational hazard, because I can't really talk about patients outside of work due to confidentiality issues. But virtually ALL my neighbors know what kind of work I do and also what my DH does (but then almost everyone in metro Denver works in IT, LOL). I don't know how you picked that up from any post of mine. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else??
Regarding soulless suburbs, here is a little history of some of the Denver suburbs I wrote up during another one of these discussion.
As far as living carless, here is a thread that some may find interesting. The guy that started it uses public transit extensively (though not exclusively), and lives in the Denver suburb of Arvada.
I wish I could get other posters out there defending their suburbs and pointing out why they are better and I would probably expand my horizons, but it's very difficult to do when you are the only person giving me the examples and all your examples have to do with Denver area and especially your town. I would say 'town' because I believe you live in a small town vs. a typical suburb.
I've visited Denver area with the open mind, but I didn't like it. I don't know whether this has to do with the fact that I don't like landlocked places or the fact that the city was in the valley or the fact that the downtown area was pretty dead with ordinary shopping center and rows of some cute cafes (which also were dead in the middle of a nice sunny Sunday). I didn't 'feel' like Denver was a world class city.
I know I can give you a thousand reasons of why I would like to be near a world class city or what things constitute a world class city, but you will probably give me examples of how I can find this all in Denver area. So, I am not going to do this.
Thank you for opening my mind on the issues of suburbia. I will be more open minded. I still won't give up on the idea of trying to get a place in the city though, because, this is just what I like.
ogre posted a number of pictures of suburbs from all over the US. I happen to use Denver because I live there. I've been in suburbs of Chicago that were little communities in their own right, as well, but I am not very familiar with them. Papillion, Nebraska is a suburb of Omaha that has a little downtown, sidewalks, some of the things you like.
I know not everyone likes Denver. If you want NYC, you'll have to go to NYC. I'm interested to know just where in Denver you were that was so deserted on Sunday morning. BTW, sunny doesn't cut it here; it's always sunny, that's no big deal, really! By 10 AM even little Louisville starts to wake up on a Sunday, and Boulder is hopping!
Thanks for being open-minded enough to think about it. I hope you find your niche!
Modern Suburbs are the bane of American society
- Suburban teenagers play video games non-stop.
- Suburban Fathers drive SUVs' non-stop.
- Suburban Mothers hover around their vacuums and ovens non-stop.
- Suburban Houses look ugly and bland non-stop.
I hope we don't get so we're going around in circles. Has anyone here seen the thread that was pretty active a few weeks ago about whether Boston or Atlanta "feels" bigger? Basically it came down completely to a matter of personal perception. Read enough posts on that thread and it becomes clear that to some people, sprawl makes a city seem bigger because they can drive on and on and on before getting into the beginnings of rural countryside. To them Atlanta "feels" bigger. To others, a city seems bigger if it's got a lot of activity, and density of buildings, packed into its central city area. To these people Boston "feels" larger. After a while that thread just went back and forth without saying anything new. One person would say, "Atlanta feels bigger because it goes on and on way out away from downtown." Then someone would respond, "Boston feels bigger because there's more activitiy downtown." Then someone else would respond to that by expressing with slightly different wording the basic idea that Atlanta felt bigger because it spread out well away from the central city. To which someone would respond with a variation in wording that Boston felt bigger because it had more packed into its central city. And on and on. I hope we don't get into the same thing here. It's all a matter of personal perception and preferences.
I wish I could get other posters out there defending their suburbs and pointing out why they are better and I would probably expand my horizons, but it's very difficult to do when you are the only person giving me the examples and all your examples have to do with Denver area and especially your town. I would say 'town' because I believe you live in a small town vs. a typical suburb . . . [/quote]
KT, in the words of the late Pres. Reagan, "There you go again!"
A lot of the point I was after with that rather long post I made last night (and the one the night before with all the pictures) was that some small towns, small cities, etc., ARE suburbs. I can't be sure, but from reading the posts on here, it appears that we're all in agreement that we'd prefer to live somewhere other than the classic picture of sprawling suburbia. If one is not so quick to dismiss any town in a metro area that's not like classic sprawling suburbia as not really being a suburb, maybe it becomes easier to see how someone who lives in a metro-area town with real character and its own sense of community can see the suburbs as the best of both worlds.
Think of it this way. Again, referring to something I said last night, when I pointed out that cities have many areas other than the recently gentrified central-city sections, many of which don't fit the picture of a lively neighborhood where you can walk to coffee shops and art galleries and cozy restaurants and funky little corner stores. Suppose I kept repeating the assertion that most city residents live in densely packed residential neighborhoods where the local businesses are a bunch of small stores that sell basic everyday items, a lot of greasy-spoon diners, a dive bar or two on evey block, and a scattering of pawn shops and check-cashing places. Suppose I also kept asserting that those vibrant neighborhoods KT keeps promoting weren't real city neighborhoods, but were just some yuppie enclaves that were really a lot like the more active, walkable suburbs except that they happen to be within the city limits.
Now, given all of this, suppose I were a hypothetical user who lived in one of those nice, walkable suburbs, and made a post, touting its assets. Something like: I live in a tree-shaded neighborhood of well-preserved large older homes, an area with real visual character. The density of this neighborhood provides a nice balance between the intimacy of city living and the open spaces of country living. The houses are close enough together to give a feeling of intimacy. The place really feels like a neighborhood, with people out walking around, greeting each other, and stopping here and there to chat. At the same time, each house has enough yard around it for people to feel as if they have their own space. When I need more space, where the kids and the dog can run around, there's the park two blocks over. I can walk fifteen minutes to the north of my house and reach a local shopping center, where I make purchases to meet everyday needs at a supermarket and a drugstore. Three blocks to the west of my house is a corner convenience store, and on another corner of the same intersection a small eatery that serves fare that's simple but hearty, as well as the best coffee I've had anywhere. A ten-minute walk the other way takes me downtown, where there's a mix of basic stores to meet everyday needs and eclectic small niche businesses like an art gallery, a book store, a deli and Jewish bakery, an Italian bakery, and a couple of coffee shops. I can walk just over ten minutes from my house and arrive at a commuter rail station where I can catch a train that will have me in the nearby city in twenty minutes, where I can enjoy all the downtown of a big city has to offer, but I live in a town of 30,000, where my children attend good schools and my involvement in community activities allows me to really get to know my town's fellow citizens. Etc., etc.
Now, this is not my situation, and the town I'm describing is not based precisely on any one town I'm familiar with, but I know plenty of towns that are basically like this.
Suppose, though, that after this hypothetical user who does live in such a town had posted this idyllic description of his appealing suburban town, the city dweller made a post describing the sorts of activities within walking distance, or a short subway ride, from his brownstone in a gentrified city neighborhood. Suppose our resident of the nice walkable suburb responded by saying, "Yes, but you don't live in a real city neighborhood. You live in one of those yuppie enclaves." KT, this is exactly the same idea as what happens when you respond to Katiana's description of her town by saying she lives in a small town and not a real suburb. In reality, many suburbs don't fit the classic picture of suburbia, but they are still suburbs.
On the issue of whether you have to drive to get to a lot of amenities in the suburbs. I've said before that I enjoy being able to walk places. To judge by this forum, many people enjoy this. However, aside from the point I've been making that towns that don't fit the classic picture of suburbia still qualify as suburbs, if someone really does not mind hopping in the car and driving to the store, out to eat, etc., then to that person even the more sprawling kind of suburbia could very well be the best of both worlds. Again, it's a matter of preference.
Kind of wondering how this thread got to be a city-vs.-suburbs debate. After all, the original question of the thread was whether the suburbs offer the best or the worst of both worlds. The city offers the best of one world. It's one of the extremes, rural areas and really small non-metropolitan towns being the other extreme. As one of the extremes, the city can't offer the best of both worlds, so, given the best-of-BOTH-worlds question posed in the original post, how did the merits of city living vs. suburban living become the central debate here?
Worst. I grew up in a northeast suburb. Rich, smug, high taxes, no nightlife, nothing to do... I've known since I was 10 that I would live in a city as an adult. Doesn't have to be a big city as long as it's not a cookie cutter burb(I'm hoping I can get a job in Rochester, NY after college and stick around there).
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The best part of living in the burbs is that there are sometimes cute kittens there that neighbor's kids show around the area and will let you play with.
