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I never said I drove everywhere. I said I drove to all those events, b/c that was the question you asked me. I also never said you can find everything you need in a suburb. I said the burbs have their arts offerings, shopping, restaurants, and so on just as the city does. I said I have the advantages of the city, too. I have, BTW, taken the Bronco Bus and the Rockies Bus to games in the city. It's way easier than driving a car, especially to Coors Field, which can be hard to get in and out of. You can't walk or take public transportation everywhere, even if you live in the city. When I was a visiting nurse, I needed a car for work. Many city residents, in Denver anyway, drive to the burbs to work. DH and I did that, as I posted earlier. And I do not really live in a small town. It is 25 miles from Denver. Most people work out of town, in one of the other suburbs or the city. It is very dependent on the city. It is, however, an example of how good it can get in the burbs. And it's not the only one. I am fine with anyone who wants to living in the city. I wanted that, too, at one time.
I will say, the thing I really, really like about living in my town is the sense of community. It seems you just don't get that in a big city. Our town has many different festivals; it sometimes feels like the Gilmore Girls' town. My kids loved the annual pet parade when they were little. DH would fashion a cage out of chicken wire for their wagon, and they would parade down Main Street with the cats in the wagon. They would be announced on the loudspeaker: "S. and G. with their cats, Katie and Amy". They had their pictures in the paper for their gymnastics feats. At the Labor Day parade, when the high school band marches down the street playing the fight song, the crowd sings along. On the Fourth of July, the city council cooks brats and hamburgers for the town for free. These things are not done in the city. So yeah, maybe it's not better, but it's just as good.
Like I said, different lifestyles. Some people like things you would care less about and they also wouldn't care much about all the local festivals and a closely-knit community a small town has to offer. I had a post recently on rural vs. urban life where I was trying to take a stab at why some people may prefer a big city vs a small rural town. Some people actually see the 'strong sense of community' as a vice rather than virtue. They much rather prefer to have their privacy and sense of independence, which are easier to maintain in the city.
From what you are saying, Katiana, your experiences are those of someone living in a small town with its own identity as opposed to a typical suburb.
You seem to have a little different experience than most suburbanites I've encountered and what I've experienced myself. When I think of suburbs, these are the things that come to mind:
- Total and complete dependence on a car
- Traffic, rat race and soulless existence.
- Blandness and conformity in everything from architecture, to the clothes people wear and way they behave.
- Hanging out at strip malls, local large box shopping complex as your only options of dining/shopping and entertainment. (Not my personal experience always, as I would make an effort going for alternatives even if this means lots of driving).
- "Keeping up with the Joneses" and all the vices that come with it.
- A feeling of 'not fitting in' if you happen to own a house in a suburb that's either too expensive or too cheap for your income level.
Sorry to just list negatives, but somehow all these things started to out-weight all the advantages of having your own detached home with a two car garage and a backyard.
Anyone else has the same feeling about living in the burbs?
These are just some of the few advantages of living in the city that wouldn't be characteristic of suburban living whatever you say:
- no need to own a car
- being able to walk everywhere or take public transport (work, school, entertainment)
- hustle and bustle of the city - sidewalks full of people, feeling of liveliness at any time of the day without having to drive to the 'town center' or a county fair type of thing.
What city are you even talking about? Because unless if your city is New York City, what you're saying sounds like some pretty blatant exaggeration to me.
What city are you even talking about? Because unless if your city is New York City, what you're saying sounds like some pretty blatant exaggeration to me.
That's not a blatant exaggeration. I lived in SF, Seattle and DC without a car and can say all these things about each one of them. I am pretty certain there are other US cities that would fit the bill (ex. Chicago, Boston) that I haven't experienced living in.
Like I said, different lifestyles. Some people like things you would care less about and they also wouldn't care much about all the local festivals and a closely-knit community a small town has to offer. I had a post recently on rural vs. urban life where I was trying to take a stab at why some people may prefer a big city vs a small rural town. Some people actually see the 'strong sense of community' as a vice rather than virtue. They much rather prefer to have their privacy and sense of independence, which are easier to maintain in the city.
From what you are saying, Katiana, your experiences are those of someone living in a small town with its own identity as opposed to a typical suburb.
You seem to have a little different experience than most suburbanites I've encountered and what I've experienced myself. When I think of suburbs, these are the things that come to mind:
- Total and complete dependence on a car
- Traffic, rat race and soulless existence.
- Blandness and conformity in everything from architecture, to the clothes people wear and way they behave.
- Hanging out at strip malls, local large box shopping complex as your only options of dining/shopping and entertainment. (Not my personal experience always, as I would make an effort going for alternatives even if this means lots of driving).
- "Keeping up with the Joneses" and all the vices that come with it.
- A feeling of 'not fitting in' if you happen to own a house in a suburb that's either too expensive or too cheap for your income level.
Sorry to just list negatives, but somehow all these things started to out-weight all the advantages of having your own detached home with a two car garage and a backyard.
Anyone else has the same feeling about living in the burbs?
Certainly not me. Total and complete dependence on a car
To reiterate, most suburbs have some sort of public transportation available. Some have excellent public transit, especially into the city. Many are walkable in the sense that you can at least walk to the nearest park with your spouse, your kids, and/or your dog. - Traffic, rat race and soulless existence.
Traffic is no worse, and sometimes better in the burbs than the city. "Rat race" is vague and undefinable. I'm not sure it's confined to the burbs, either. Soulless? Huh? - Blandness and conformity in everything from architecture, to the clothes people wear and way they behave.
Oh come on! You think there are no 'eccentrics' in the burbs? Think again. Some people have to wear suits to work. I wear scrubs. DH wears jeans, as does the entire engineering department of his company. - Hanging out at strip malls, local large box shopping complex as your only options of dining/shopping and entertainment. (Not my personal experience always, as I would make an effort going for alternatives even if this means lots of driving).
I think this has been fairly well covered in terms of what activities are available in the burbs. - "Keeping up with the Joneses" and all the vices that come with it.
I certainly feel no pressure to do that. We live frugally, as do many of our neighbors. - A feeling of 'not fitting in' if you happen to own a house in a suburb that's either too expensive or too cheap for your income level.
Since I do not discuss my income level with anyone, I don't think that's a problem.
That's not a blatant exaggeration. I lived in SF, Seattle and DC without a car and can say all these things about each one of them. I am pretty certain there are other US cities that would fit the bill (ex. Chicago, Boston) that I haven't experienced living in.
Yeah, I do think KT's description would fit pretty well with any of the old-style, densely packed cities.
A key point here, KT, is that the city life you describe is not found in every urban neighborhood. You describe a life typical of yuppies in the inner-city areas that have seen gentrification in the past twenty years or so. In reality, there are also plenty of slum areas in cities, as well as close-knit old "neigh-buh-hoods" that have all the parochial negative points of those small towns you described in an earlier post as places where a "sense of community" can be seen as much negatively as positively. Others here have defined the suburbs in the most narrow sense, but I address you in particular at the moment, because you've made several recent posts here, where you have dismissed the kinds of suburbs of which I presented photos several posts back as not being true suburbs, while at the same time presenting city life as being the life found mainly in the best city neighborhoods, when the reality is that there are other city neighborhoods. I mention KT's name because of these several recent posts, but my thoughts are directed generally.
I grew up in what might be described as a woodsy suburb. By this I do not mean an exurb, because the town has a greater population density than that, and has no truly rural character. This is a one-time little farm town that has long since become suburbanized, but retains the old winding country roads, with woods and fields interspersed among all the suburban housing. It's an affluent community, and very white. As a teenager, I developed some rebellious adolescent angst about living in such a stiflingly homogeneous place. This town would still not be my first choice for a place to settle once and for all, but I've done some re-evaluating of the place, over time.
Several years ago I returned to college as an older student, and at one point worked on campus with a young guy from an urban neighborhood inhabited mostly by people of Irish ancestry, where generations of the same extended families all lived, and had lived, for decades, and where political patronage and cronyism were intertwined tightly into the fabric of everyday life.
During a discussion with this guy about politics, I allowed as how my voter registration was independent. He chastised me for this, saying that to him, being an independent meant wimping out, and refusing to stand for either party's principles. I thought about this, and, having been significantly older than my young critic, felt comfortable in assuming the role of one who imparts wisdom. I suggested, good-naturedly but seriously, that he needed to gain some perspective, to see other ways of life than the only life he had known to that time in his life, in one of those close-knit urban neigh-buh-hoods that are every bit as insular and as unwelcoming to outsiders, and have their dirty little secrets every bit as much, as the most provincial small town.
It was no surprise that this person I was talking to had this sense he had that one needed to be loyal to a political party. The only life he had known before starting college had been in a neighborhood where people were all from pretty much the same background, where political wheeling and dealing was part of life, and where one political party was stirred deeply into the blood of the neighborhood residents as THE party of their kind of people. In making my case for another point of view, I described a few of my neighbors in my suburban home town. There was the business executive next door, who had grown up in a working class home and was truly self-made. Then there was the Iranian immigrant woman doctor, who lived next door on the other side. And the family across the street, whose parents had European bourgeois backgrounds, the father's parents having been refugees from the Russian Revolution. And the family down the street, whose father was a white-collar type who as a standard part of his job got transferred to a new city every few years. And the Chinese immigrant family who lived a few blocks over. And the Italian immigrant family who lived a few blocks over in another direction. And a good friend of mine, whose family had moved to this suburb of Boston from Texas. And a classmate of mine whose family had moved there from Michigan. And my family, who had moved there from Vriginia, my family whose grandparents had all been self-made, so that my parents were both in their families' first generation to be born and raised in the middle class.
While this thread is not specifically about diversity, here I'll emphasize that I've just described some real diversity. Not the narrow kind of diversity defined only by racial differences, but a rich diversity of backgrounds. I made the point to my younger cohort that, with so many people from so many backgrounds moving in and out, there was no way to have the sense that one political party or the other was THE party of MY kind of people, who are all around me in my neighborhood, because that was not the reality of my neighborhood or my town. As I made this point, it hit me that the suburbs were really not the completely bland, white-bread places they were frequently protrayed as being. It also occurred to me that this lack of cohesiveness was in its way positive, because it helped avert the kind of insular parochialism and coldness toward outsiders found in the city neigh-buh-hoods where the same families have dominated the scene for generations.
Okay, it was not all positive. The downside of that lack of cohesiveness was a certain dilution of community feeling, and in truth there were people living one street over from me whose names I didn't know, some of whom I would not even have recognized as some of my neighbors if I had seen them out around town. I'm not intending to blindly defend suburbia, or to deny that it has the negative points so often associated with it. I simply ask that people do not dismiss those towns, within metropolitan areas, with more of an independent character, a nice collection of local amenities, and a sense of community, or those that even have some urban character, as not being real suburbs. They are part of suburbia, just as ghettos and close-knit but narrow-minded old neigh-buh-hoods are part of city life. Please try to keep this in mind, and not to limit city-suburb comparisons to only the best that cities have to offer and the worst to be found in suburbia.
A Please try to keep this in mind, and not to limit city-suburb comparisons to only the best that cities have to offer and the worst to be found in suburbia.
This is a very nice and a heartfelt essay and you certainly bring up good points.
Please understand though that I and other posters are very well aware that there are different suburbs and different city neighborhoods. When we are posting to threads like this we can't help being biased (based on our experiences) and generalizing a bit because, it's simply impossible to take a giant survey of every single suburb or a city neighborhood or interview every single household (or a good sample of households) in the country. We have to draw the lines and start generalizing at some point.
If you look at the 'best places to live' or 'best places to do A, B and C' lists that are being published by many popular magazines you will realize that they may use different criteria and different methods to gather and look at data that's why we would see different places all over these different lists that don't always agree with one another. And the writers supposedly did their research and well, this is their job they get paid for. The people on these forums are not necessarily social scientists or the survey analysts and they are not going to spend hours/days doing research and their opinions will be somewhat biased and based on their personal experiences or experiences of the people close to them. This doesn't make these opinions less valuable even if they seem to follow the generalizations. And, yes, your opinion is also very valuable and thank you for contributing
Certainly not me. Total and complete dependence on a car
To reiterate, most suburbs have some sort of public transportation available. Some have excellent public transit, especially into the city. Many are walkable in the sense that you can at least walk to the nearest park with your spouse, your kids, and/or your dog. - Traffic, rat race and soulless existence.
Traffic is no worse, and sometimes better in the burbs than the city. "Rat race" is vague and undefinable. I'm not sure it's confined to the burbs, either. Soulless? Huh? - Blandness and conformity in everything from architecture, to the clothes people wear and way they behave.
Oh come on! You think there are no 'eccentrics' in the burbs? Think again. Some people have to wear suits to work. I wear scrubs. DH wears jeans, as does the entire engineering department of his company. - Hanging out at strip malls, local large box shopping complex as your only options of dining/shopping and entertainment. (Not my personal experience always, as I would make an effort going for alternatives even if this means lots of driving).
I think this has been fairly well covered in terms of what activities are available in the burbs. - "Keeping up with the Joneses" and all the vices that come with it.
I certainly feel no pressure to do that. We live frugally, as do many of our neighbors. - A feeling of 'not fitting in' if you happen to own a house in a suburb that's either too expensive or too cheap for your income level.
Since I do not discuss my income level with anyone, I don't think that's a problem.
Modern Suburbs are the bane of American society
- Suburban teenagers play video games non-stop.
- Suburban Fathers drive SUVs' non-stop.
- Suburban Mothers hover around their vacuums and ovens non-stop.
- Suburban Houses look ugly and bland non-stop.
Certainly not me. Total and complete dependence on a car
To reiterate, most suburbs have some sort of public transportation available. Some have excellent public transit, especially into the city. Many are walkable in the sense that you can at least walk to the nearest park with your spouse, your kids, and/or your dog. - Traffic, rat race and soulless existence.
Traffic is no worse, and sometimes better in the burbs than the city. "Rat race" is vague and undefinable. I'm not sure it's confined to the burbs, either. Soulless? Huh? - Blandness and conformity in everything from architecture, to the clothes people wear and way they behave.
Oh come on! You think there are no 'eccentrics' in the burbs? Think again. Some people have to wear suits to work. I wear scrubs. DH wears jeans, as does the entire engineering department of his company. - Hanging out at strip malls, local large box shopping complex as your only options of dining/shopping and entertainment. (Not my personal experience always, as I would make an effort going for alternatives even if this means lots of driving).
I think this has been fairly well covered in terms of what activities are available in the burbs. - "Keeping up with the Joneses" and all the vices that come with it.
I certainly feel no pressure to do that. We live frugally, as do many of our neighbors. - A feeling of 'not fitting in' if you happen to own a house in a suburb that's either too expensive or too cheap for your income level.
Since I do not discuss my income level with anyone, I don't think that's a problem.
I can argue with you non-stop and you can too. I don't think we can ever agree.
A car dependability test is simple: Do you need to own a car to live in a place 'x' or not? If you answer is yes, but there are some things you can do without a car, you are still dependent on a car. If you can live in a place completely without a car then you are not dependent on a car.
As far as blandness, conformity, keeping up with the Joneses and income segregation in suburbs (the white suburbs are not just white suburbs, they are 'upper class', 'middle class' or 'lower middle class' burbs), I can write an essay about it. You don't seem to experience it, great for you. I am not going to make a blanket statement that EVERYONE will experience this living in a suburb. I am not going to say ALL suburbs are like what I describe. Although I am pretty surprised that for all this time you lived in your small town none of your neighbors asked you what you do for a living when you have a conversation with them. Nobody will certainly ask you to show them your tax return, but people will still have a pretty good idea about your level of income and education because they'll inquire about what you do, where you are from, what college you went to, your marital status etc.
I am not going to argue about your quality of life, I think personally, that you have a great lifestyle. You also maybe in a different age group (if you have an adult daughter) and see things differently because of this, because of different priorities in your life and having more established homestead.
I will never agree with you on all these points that you listed about the car and about the stuff to do in the burbs. You still have to drive to the city to do some stuff that you simply can't do in the burbs, whereas living in the city you are less likely to venture into the burbs unless you have friends, family there or on the way for nature get-aways.
Let's just agree that we'll disagree, we are obviously not on the same page. How about cats? You seem to like cats, I love them too, why don't we just agree on that one The best part of living in the burbs is that there are sometimes cute kittens there that neighbor's kids show around the area and will let you play with.
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The best part of living in the burbs is that there are sometimes cute kittens there that neighbor's kids show around the area and will let you play with.
