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Well, darn,, tried editing my above comments, but cannot seem to . .It is TexasReb, not THL.. and my last comment did not show up TexasReb... I wanted to say,, naw, do not see you as a smart$$$,, just someone interesting to have on line chat with..
I gotcha on the correction!
Thanks, RC...and I appreciate your nice words. Heck, one of my best friends is a flaming liberal tree-huggin' yankee. LOL He doesn't live down here anymore, but we still keep in touch via e-mail. Some of my favorite memories of us getting together on weekend nights and killing off a case of beer while pounding the table and arguing politics! LOL
I don't take disagrement personal at all...
But to address your points...?
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Originally Posted by redclay45
I mean THL.. that our founding fathers left to us the land to be cared for,, not used and exploited to the point our land and our waterways are now so polluted, that much cannot be used.. For that, they would be turning over in their graves..
Broadly and idealistically speaking, who could disagree with that there was left to us a land to be cared for? I agree totally within that realm. However, not withstanding that the concept of classic freedom was the primary legacy left us, there was no doubt an acceptance of the reality of that for a nation to grow, prosper, and be free, then it would mean taking and doing something with the land itself.
The price to be paid (unless we wanted to live in Teepees and dugout cabins) was naturally going to be some sort of exploitation. Every single creation of wealth (and a higher standard of living) means a trade-off in some form or fashion. No offence (and not saying you are one of these)...but I find those who most get up in arms about it are of a class which has the luxury of living within the comfort of a lifestyle which is the direct result of that which they self-righteously condemn. But within the confines of that they don't have to actually give up anything tangible...
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They would be turning over in their graves to see plastic bags littering their land.... They would wonder what happened to the human species that we would even need a law to begin with to do what we should be able to do freely...
They probably would. But what they would NOT do, is believe government mandates would be the "solution." Instead, they (just my guess) would believe in the natural process of that a free society and people will gradually change/adapt their habits and institutions if it is detrimental.
I don't know how old you are, but I am old enough to remember from the mid-60's when "littering" in Texas became a problem in the minds of many people. The "solution" that I remember best working was not government legislation in and of itself. But rather, that of populist sentiment. Sorta like a "boycot". Public sentiment, thru the grass roots efforts of those who thought Texas was to beautiful to be trashed out, started a campaign...and public sentiment which swung in favor of that "litterbugs" be ostrasized a bit. And that yep, those of us who threw out our beer cans (although I wasn't old enough to drink then! LOL) were the pariahs. We were "uglifying" our beloved native state.
By extension, over time, littering became a Class C misdemenor.
Point is though, the above described is the natural process of how people change their opinions and eventually the law itself.
On the other hand, what it being advocated with the "outlawing" of "plastic bags" is reflective of an ever-more mindset in this country that direct mandates are the font of all wisdom. And usually based upon the flimsiest of evidence that there is actually any "problem" to begin with.
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But too many are not going to take care of the land,, they will continue to polute with plastic bags.. That is why I said, in an ideal world.. In an ideal world, everyone would just by their own volution, stop using them,, but many will not... Hence the need for it seems, more and more legislation,,, I do not like it any more than you do, but I dislike more, the lack of concern of far too many..
There are laws -- which evolved as a direct result of what was described above -- ticketing intentional trashing. And BTW -- please never presume that just because you favor immediate and direct intervention in certain areas, that those of us who differ in our approaches are not equally concerned about whatever the environmental problem might be. No offence, but this outlook contains a bit of arrogance about it.
I am kinda reminded when all this "Earth Day" Hoo-Ha started. As if no one before John Lennon (or whoever) had a clue. Fact is, most of our grandpappies and grandmaws took care of what the Good Lord gave them as the bounty to be carefully appreciated and treasured and nurtured (their living depended on it ) more than any tree hugger ever could. And understood the whole concept better...even if they never read a book other than the Good One.
Ok..as it is, I think that you and I proceed from such different premises that we may even be talking past each other.
Let me put it another way. I am guessing, that you are one of those who would support Global Warming legislation?
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Given the state of the world at this point, with the disaster of the economy,, I will not at this time discuss the wisdom of the species..
The underlying presumption is that there are single individuals amongst us who possess greater knowledge than the collective experience and wisdom of a free people?
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Finally your comment of imposing What is the big deal anyway,,, it is only getting rid of something that is proven not to be good for us... If not for us, then how about for our children...
The "big deal" is that you have not "proven" (anymore than algore has about Global Warming) that it is something "not good for us."
What would you replace it with? And at what cost to society and the economy and freedom would it entail?
By the way, and this point is truly relevant, I think, do you have any children of your own. Your bring up "our children"...so I just want to ask...
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Read something not long ago, for the parents or grandparents here.. " do you think your grandchildren would forgive you for NOT taking care of the world that will be handed down to them" Yes, I am an idealist,and I believe in the best in humans..
Good question so far as it goes. BUT...before you can lecture and pontificate, are you a parent or grandparent yourself? I will be happy to reply to the general point, but only think it fair you present your credentials for doing so. I KNOW what I have done as to attempting to pass on an appreciation and love of the land to my children. What have you done in the same regard?
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But some humans like it or not, ,Do not know or care what is best, for the masses, only what is the best and easiest for them... Those are the ones that cause so damned many legislation and laws we do not care for..
This says quite a bit. The "masses." Individual human beings are the "masses." Speaks volumes (and if the shoe don't fit, don't wear it) about how many on the left actually view the very people they claim to have so much regard and compassion for...
They are the faceless people whose lives need to be carefully guided and controlled and micro-managed. They know not what is best for them...
At our neighborhood discount grocery store (WinCo Foods), they take $0.60 off your bill for every re-usable bag you bring, regardless of your total bill. The reusable bags they sell only cost $0.69, so making your money back is very easy. I don't know how they worked it out to make sense financially for them, but I'll take it!
That's awesome that they have an incentive program like that. I just jumped on the reusable bag bandwagon last night, after my fiancee persuaded me. I had been thinking about it for a while, but when I saw that decent-sized reusable bags at HEB were $5 or more, I passed. But she found Petco reusable bags for less than $2, with all of the proceeds going to the Petco Foundation.
What's wrong with the "old-fashioned" way of using recyclable paper bags? These bags are made from wood produced on tree farms, a renewable source of wood that doesn't require cuttting old-growth forests. They decompose in landfills very quickly as well. Perhaps an incentive program to use re-usable bags in addition to the paper bags. Offer a 1% discount on groceries if you use a reusable bag. I just don't want to have to tote bags with me since I am an infrequent shopper. I'm too cheap to want to always buy a bag. It's free now and I'm a cheapskate & want it to be free in the future. Hence my idea of a discount to offset the price of the reusable bag.
Of course, maybe it's time I get rid of my old-fashioned thinking and just stuff a few re-usable bags in my car and get with the program.
when i worked at HEB about 25 years ago, we were told that the store's profit margin was only 1-2%. if that was correct, i don't think that a 1% discount would help the store's profit.
Hi there RB... I find you have all very valid points.. I am not from Texas but surely do enjoy reading the thoughts and ideas of a Texan.. Gives me insight....
Yes, I do believe in Global Warming.... And think something needs doing.. And I do agree with you on that all too often it is we working class that must do the doing, while the so called,, "Upper Class" just keep right on doing what they do, which is nothing.. They get rich off our backs, and they do more than their share of polluting, and then the yell the loudest. From what I have read, Al Gore is a good example of that with his many houses and cars etc...
I would say for me,, do not much care how it gets done I guess, re the littering and polluting with plastic bags,, just want them to go away and stop clogging up our waterways....
As for kids and grandchildren... Yup got a few of both... And it is for them I think the way I do.... I have enjoyed life , still do,, ( I am going on 64) And I know darned well, done my share of polluting in my life.. Not on purpose but like many out of ignorance, or just not wanting to bother...
Do you mind me asking but you sure enough seem like an intelligent and well read person... I enjoyed reading your response to me..
redclay45, I was raised by parents who taught me, way back in the 1950's, the "what if everybody did it" test, as in, yes, it wouldn't be a big deal if you picked a few wildflowers from the thousands lining the roadsides, but what if everybody did it? Or, it wouldn't matter if you threw one piece of paper on the ground, but what if everybody did it? In other words, the very basics of the ecological movement long before it existed.
However, another way to phrase that is, "what if everybody decided to impose their personal beliefs on everybody else via legislation?" That's just as much of a disaster as plastic bags. Probably more.
As I said, with this kind of attitude, King George is likely rejoicing that he won, ultimately. The free country that the founding fathers fought to create, and many have died to preserve, being lost not to an outside invader, but to folks who simply can't stand that others might not make the same decisions they do, and might even be right, if given the chance to prove it, so do their best to legislate their own "don't worry your pretty little head about it, I KNOW I'm right and that counts MUCH more than your freedoms" point of view.
Well THL... What are you saying, , If folks want to keep using plastic bags , they should be allowed to.. So, ,keep on using yours.. That seems to be your arguement,, that you want to have the right to use them if you want...... You are taking to extremes to win a point, in some of your comments. Time to end this one, when that begins to happen as it becomes a who is right, no longer a discussion.. Thanks for the responses though.
No, actually, I use reusable grocery bags - have about ten of them and use them for all sorts of things. However, I do NOT want the right to tell others what they should do in that regard; I'd rather give them reusable bags and let them get addicted the same way I did. If I demand that right "for their own good", I also give up the right to make my own decisions. As do you.
Point being, it's not my place to tell others what they can and cannot do in this regard. It IS my place to educate them, if I can, while still honoring their right to make their own decisions. But my right to educate them ends where their right to be free from legislation to enforce my will on them starts.
That's the real issue. California doesn't seem, from what I can see, to have that line - every decision is open to being legislated for you. I just don't want to see that happen to Texas (or the rest of the U.S., come to that).
THL...You are fast... I thought about my post and then deleted it... In response to your comment though,, No it is not my justification.... I do not for the life of me see where regulating or legislating the no more use of plastic bags is having to do with the day to day details of peoples lives.. If it happened it is for the good of the planet,, not to cause you or me a problem. It is not personal,, at least I do not think it is...
And for those who do not now know what is going on here,, I had posted about the possible legislating of the credit card companies who now want to gouge us with all kind of added interest rates... If they do, and I hope to goodnees they do something about those crooks,, I see it as very much a part of the day to day details of people's lives.. In fact , much more than the use of a plastic bag, that ends up sooner or later in land fill, or as someone mentioned, in the bottom of the ocean.. Other than making our lives easy as we are used to plastic,, it serves no purpose.. Why I remember not all that many years ago, when paper bags were used,, and by golly,, I was quite happy with them.. They made good fire starters,and playtime for my two cats... I was sorry to see the paper bags go out of use myself.. More practical to me...
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