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It's amusing how when Houston posters try to compare what they have to DART's rail system, they have to use terms starting with when, if, will be or should.
Well, that's what you say when it's under construction. It's not here yet. You can't say "going to" because no one knows for sure if it's going to, even if the probability is extremely high. Just look at it now. On 1/10th the amount of track, Metro has about 50% of DART's riders currently. Now, what do you think will happen when the others lines are finished being built, finally connecting a bunch of residential areas (some with high density like Gulfton) with huge job centers and retail? DART may continue to have more light rail miles due to the layout of DFW, but Metro should have the higher ridership numbers because of where the light rail in Houston will be located.
Well, that's what you say when it's under construction. It's not here yet. You can't say "going to" because no one knows for sure if it's going to, even if the probability is extremely high. Just look at it now. On 1/10th the amount of track, Metro has about 50% of DART's riders currently. Now, what do you think will happen when the others lines are finished being built, finally connecting a bunch of residential areas (some with high density like Gulfton) with huge job centers and retail? DART may continue to have more light rail miles due to the layout of DFW, but Metro should have the higher ridership numbers because of where the light rail in Houston will be located.
My point is, you can have all the projections you want but until the actual lines are operational over a sustained period of time, noone knows exactly how the public is going to respond. Houston is still in Texas, and we Texans love the convenience of our cars. Especially, in the type of heat we're experiencing now.
Last edited by First24; 08-08-2011 at 11:23 AM..
Reason: tweak
Well, that's what you say when it's under construction. It's not here yet. You can't say "going to" because no one knows for sure if it's going to, even if the probability is extremely high. Just look at it now. On 1/10th the amount of track, Metro has about 50% of DART's riders currently. Now, what do you think will happen when the others lines are finished being built, finally connecting a bunch of residential areas (some with high density like Gulfton) with huge job centers and retail? DART may continue to have more light rail miles due to the layout of DFW, but Metro should have the higher ridership numbers because of where the light rail in Houston will be located.
okay.....Let me try and dumb this down so people can understand how this ridership thing works....Picture a hallway of restrooms.....it has two doors in it with 50 people using those restrooms. Each door represents 1 train station and 1 mile of track. With each additional door thats added you add 5 people. So with the first two restrooms it averages out to be 50 people for total ridership and 25 per mile. That alot of people for only two restrooms,so let's expand the line and add two more restrooms. With the two new restrooms comes more customers....10 extra. So now. You have 4 restrooms(stations) and 4 miles instead of 2. Now Total ridership(i have to pee!)is UP to 60 people but ridership per mile went DOWNbecause 60 people ÷ 4 miles is 15. So now ridership per mile is 15 instead of the 25 that the two starter restrooms delt with. If you add two more restrooms,total ridership goes up to 70 and ridership per mile goes down to 11. In real life the scale of this concept is at least 1000 times larger. I just felt that it would be easier to understand in the simplest form. I hope this helps.
okay.....Let me try and dumb this down so people can understand how this ridership thing works....Picture a hallway of restrooms.....it has two doors in it with 50 people using those restrooms. Each door represents 1 train station and 1 mile of track. With each additional door thats added you add 5 people. So with the first two restrooms it averages out to be 50 people for total ridership and 25 per mile. That alot of people for only two restrooms,so let's expand the line and add two more restrooms. With the two new restrooms comes more customers....10 extra. So now. You have 4 restrooms(stations) and 4 miles instead of 2. Now Total ridership(i have to pee!)is UP to 60 people but ridership per mile went DOWNbecause 60 people ÷ 4 miles is 15. So now ridership per mile is 15 instead of the 25 that the two starter restrooms delt with. If you add two more restrooms,total ridership goes up to 70 and ridership per mile goes down to 11. In real life the scale of this concept is at least 1000 times larger. I just felt that it would be easier to understand in the simplest form. I hope this helps.
That is my point with the Green line and Blue line.
WIth the green line you are adding less people per mile than the red line while with the blue line it is 2 or 3 times as many.
Most certainly they will do away with most of the east west buses to the SW once the blue line is built. WestHeimer alone has about 7 buses, Richmond has about three, then there are Bellaire, beechnut and all these other buses. These buses run sometimes every 5 minutes. The ridership to the southwest is more than the red line so in your scenario it would be like adding a restroom but on the side where there are lots more people needing to poo.
The opposite is true for the green line. They are just adding toilets that will see less backside. The numbers will definitely go down because the green line will be running before the blue. The Red line expansion will make it even worse.
My point is, you can have all the projections you want but until the actual lines are operational over a sustained period of time, noone knows exactly how the public is going to respond. Houston is still in Texas, and we Texans love the convenience of our cars. Especially, in the type of heat we're experiencing now.
I guess, but they underestimate the lines on purpose it seems. Metro projected the current Red Line to have about 40,000 riders per day by 2020 when it opened in 2004. It met that number like two years later. They give themselves big margins of error, but for the most part, the estimates are pretty in line with what actually happens. Don't think funding would be awarded otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dallasboi
okay.....Let me try and dumb this down so people can understand how this ridership thing works....Picture a hallway of restrooms.....it has two doors in it with 50 people using those restrooms. Each door represents 1 train station and 1 mile of track. With each additional door thats added you add 5 people. So with the first two restrooms it averages out to be 50 people for total ridership and 25 per mile. That alot of people for only two restrooms,so let's expand the line and add two more restrooms. With the two new restrooms comes more customers....10 extra. So now. You have 4 restrooms(stations) and 4 miles instead of 2. Now Total ridership(i have to pee!)is UP to 60 people but ridership per mile went DOWNbecause 60 people ÷ 4 miles is 15. So now ridership per mile is 15 instead of the 25 that the two starter restrooms delt with. If you add two more restrooms,total ridership goes up to 70 and ridership per mile goes down to 11. In real life the scale of this concept is at least 1000 times larger. I just felt that it would be easier to understand in the simplest form. I hope this helps.
I have no idea what all of this is for because I wasn't even talking about riders per mile, but overall ridership numbers for light rail transit in each system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HtownLove
That is my point with the Green line and Blue line.
WIth the green line you are adding less people per mile than the red line while with the blue line it is 2 or 3 times as many.
Most certainly they will do away with most of the east west buses to the SW once the blue line is built. WestHeimer alone has about 7 buses, Richmond has about three, then there are Bellaire, beechnut and all these other buses. These buses run sometimes every 5 minutes. The ridership to the southwest is more than the red line so in your scenario it would be like adding a restroom but on the side where there are lots more people needing to poo.
The opposite is true for the green line. They are just adding toilets that will see less backside. The numbers will definitely go down because the green line will be running before the blue. The Red line expansion will make it even worse.
I don't know. The Red Line extension and Green Line go through some transit dependent areas. They aren't projecting that many riders for either anyway (something like 15-17,000 for each, IIRC), but the lines are only like six miles long in the first place. The Blue Line will be the largest line in the system, and it is less than 14 miles long. The Blue Line will offset what the Green Line does to riders per mile, or at least it should. That line will get a lot of traffic for people heading to Uptown from the universities and residential areas along it.
As a total outsider, living in Houston for 1 year and Dallas/Plano for 4 months, (as stated in previous post), I am going to give my opinion on Houston's bus system:
I did mention the one bus driver who was very kind, stopping for me even though I was not flagging him down or at a bus stop nor had money and only had to go a few blocks.
But, I did not go in to the bus/transit system more than that for either city because:
Houston -
I'm standing in the driveway of my brother's house. To the right of me is the Galleria. If I had a car, it would take me about 10 minutes to get there.
To the left of me is downtown. If I had a car it would take me about 15 or so minutes to get there.
Ok, so, I want to go to the Galleria. I don't have a car so I'm going to have to get on the bus.
Problem.
Instead of just being able to walk towards the right and up a few blocks where the buses are, and hop on one going towards the Galleria, I have to go all. the. way. downtown FIRST and THEN catch another bus to the Galleria.
Man I hated that. Every time I wanted to go anywhere I had to go downtown first and then back out.
THAT part of Houston's bus system totally sucked.
But, the ridership was indeed high. The buses were clean, they had a/c, (nice!!!!), and the drivers were always, and yes, I mean that, always, friendly.
It just sucked to have to go downtown and then back out wasting a good half an hour to an hour of my time.
In Dallas/Plano, I did not use the bus system, had the use of a car while I was there so I cannot say how their system ran.
This is why I did not compare the two. But, as much as I enjoyed Houston and again, if I did move back to TX, that is where I would live, I would say get a fricken car because you waste a lot of time trying to get someplace that should only take 10 minutes, 20 tops, to get to.
And as I was reading all the comments and writing this post, I was thinking back and frankly, I don't remember seeing buses in Dallas/Plano...so, that's not a good thing. But, then again, I wasn't looking for them because I didn't have to use them.
Anyway, Houston, don't take offense, I really like your town, it's awesome, I get why you love it but, as friendly and nice as the bus drivers are, as clean as the buses were, and though a lot of people used the bus, the system sucks as far as wasting time. Improve that and you'll have one hell of a fine city.
My point is, you can have all the projections you want but until the actual lines are operational over a sustained period of time, noone knows exactly how the public is going to respond. Houston is still in Texas, and we Texans love the convenience of our cars. Especially, in the type of heat we're experiencing now.
The lines are in demand and the current line we do have has already passed expectations. Houston could easily match Dallas currently line with much less track coverage. Dallas public transit fails because it's not a centralized metropolitan area with a centralized core. Inner Loop Houston is the focal point here. Dallas planned wrong with their development; the housing and retail developments should have came first to develop the core more and get people back into the city; than rail should have came after.
With many projects going on there up in D-Town; it'll get there though.
I don't know. The Red Line extension and Green Line go through some transit dependent areas.
Transit dependent yes, transit heavy??? No. The Red Line was built in a heavy traversed area. the blue line will do the same, the green line and they red line will pass threw dependent areas but dependent areas where the bus ridership is not all that because of lower concentrations of people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trae713
They aren't projecting that many riders for either anyway (something like 15-17,000 for each, IIRC), but the lines are only like six miles long in the first place. The Blue Line will be the largest line in the system, and it is less than 14 miles long. The Blue Line will offset what the Green Line does to riders per mile, or at least it should. That line will get a lot of traffic for people heading to Uptown from the universities and residential areas along it.
Yes. I already said that the Blue line will offset both the red and Green's drop in ridership, but like I also said the blue line is gonna be completed years after the red, green and even the purple lines. So for two or three years Houston's ridership will plummet and then explode (by the time the Blue lines come on the green should be seeing increased numbers, especially if the Dynamo starts winning in their new stadium).
Honestly the reliant stages major events, they can't expect the Dynamo to keep the Green line alive like Reliant. Houston needs to realize too that it is the med center, HCC Main Street Square and UHD that is keeping the Red Line's numbers up. The Reliant causes ridership numbers to explode during special events, but having the Downtown stadiums as the only attraction isn't gonna help ridership much. In fact it is a short walk to the Stadiums from the RedLine. I would have not even considered Rail to the Second Ward (East End) and to NorthLine before rail went to Uptown, 3rd Ward and the Heights.
Seriously?? Bastrop?? York? Magnolia?? Lockwood??? Why on Earth would Metro deviate from a successful formula and start building rail to low population centers with zero economic, educational or entertainment centers?
The lines are in demand and the current line we do have has already passed expectations. Houston could easily match Dallas currently line with much less track coverage. Dallas public transit fails because it's not a centralized metropolitan area with a centralized core. Inner Loop Houston is the focal point here. Dallas planned wrong with their development; the housing and retail developments should have came first to develop the core more and get people back into the city; than rail should have came after.
With many projects going on there up in D-Town; it'll get there though.
DART took a regional approach, so to gain alliances it wasn't feasible for them to focus soley on Dallas. I agree that ideally, rail should be developed where the greatest demand and target population densities are located . Taking that approach is more time consuming and expensive though. I wouldn't say DART's planning was wrong; it was necessary for the circumstances, so they could move forward with the least resistance.
I think they should have waited on the the east end and the southeast line. The north line extension was a no brainer. They wanted people in the northern part of the loop to have service. understandable and I'm sure some people in the north would love to go downtown and to the galleria sometimes. The university line should have been the main priority though.
Houston metro system should get the north-south line and east-west line first. Worry about lines like east end and southeast lines could have been built later. Since the uptown is a big residential and employment center, I can understand that line. This poster here in this link can explain more since I'm on my evo and I dont feel like typing much.
Quote:
The East End and Southeast Lines both seem unnecessary - the Southeast could be easily served by a through-routing of the University Line to downtown (in the above dual trunk scenario), and the East End corridor should be served by enhanced buses (BRT) since the traffic volume and economic activity there are so light.
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..Let me try and dumb this down so people can understand how this ridership thing works....Picture a hallway of restrooms.....it has two doors in it with 50 people using those restrooms. Each door represents 1 train station and 1 mile of track. With each additional door thats added you add 5 people. So with the first two restrooms it averages out to be 50 people for total ridership and 25 per mile. That alot of people for only two restrooms,so let's expand the line and add two more restrooms. With the two new restrooms comes more customers....10 extra. So now. You have 4 restrooms(stations) and 4 miles instead of 2. Now Total ridership(
i have to pee!
