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30 years ago on this day (February 28th), the ATF began a raid on a church they claim to have believed to be stockpiling illegal weapons. They burnt the church down, killing 86 men, women, and children. Not a single illegal weapon was found. All the guns recovered that had readable serial numbers were all legally owned.
That was a horrible day. But there's a time to stand up for your rights, and a time to put your hands up and do what you're told and settle it in the courts. Whatever the government did or didn't do, the blame for the deaths belongs to David Koresh. Period, full stop.
Location: East Texas, with the Clan of the Cave Bear
3,287 posts, read 5,678,353 times
Reputation: 4811
Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver
This is the actual timeline.
February 11: Clinton nominates Janet Reno has his new Attorney General
February 28: Waco siege begins with the aborted ATF raid
March 11: Janet Reno is finally confirmed by the Senate and sworn in as Attorney General.
April 19: Final siege of the compound beings, ending in fiery deaths.
Basically she walked into the middle of mess that was not of her own making.
And while yes, the Attorney General does oversee the FBI, it was actually the FBI that was the lead agency during the Waco siege and the FBI director at that time was William Sessions who had been appointed by Ronald Reagan in 1987. It was the FBI that was providing all of the information to Reno including their recommendations to move forward and end the siege.
Should she have overruled her own FBI? Perhaps. Hindsight is always 20/20.
Hindsight is 20/20 . Reno came from a law enforcement background being an AG. What the outcome of this shows is that she was either weak and indecisive or militant (she should have had her game plan and how she wanted to see the outcome of the Waco fiasco play out in the 1st week in office afterall it was THE most pressing issue in her office). So maybe not 20/20 but at least 20/40. She flunked her first test and a bunch of people died, many of them children.
I do agree that the FBI under Sessions was militant and badly led. And he was appointed by Reagan one of our best presidents. And I mis-remembered the date of Ruby Ridge as it was under the Globalist George HW Bush. A sad excuse of a POTUS and a proven liar. So Ruby Ridge was under Bush I.
To note both murderous activities were started by ATF (BATF). Ruby Ridge was then escalated by shots fired on the Weavers by the US Marshals Service. While after the shootout at the Branch Davidian Compound the FBI assumed the role of lead agency in the operation. Note: the name of the ATF operation at Waco was code named "Showtime" and if that isn't telling I don't know what is.
All of this is evidence of a militant federal law enforcement which has only grown moreso. (Like why do we need 5000 new IRS agents and why does the IRS have 4500 firearms, many full automatics, and 5+ million rounds of ammunition??) Waco surely was an example of the militant Federal law enforcement flexing! Our armed forces in Iraq and Afghanistan had stiffer Rules of Engagement.
30 years ago on this day (February 28th), the ATF began a raid on a church they claim to have believed to be stockpiling illegal weapons. They burnt the church down, killing 86 men, women, and children. Not a single illegal weapon was found. All the guns recovered that had readable serial numbers were all legally owned.
I am confused because I heard they illegally converted semi-automatics to full auto.I heard the full autos were not registered with the NFA.I also heard they had hellfire triggers so I dont know if they had actual full autos.Could someone clear that up for me.I also heard on a old news story that the Davidians had their FFL but I dont know if that true or not.
Location: East Texas, with the Clan of the Cave Bear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewMexicoCowboy
I am confused because I heard they illegally converted semi-automatics to full auto.I heard the full autos were not registered with the NFA.I also heard they had hellfire triggers so I dont know if they had actual full autos.Could someone clear that up for me.I also heard on a old news story that the Davidians had their FFL but I dont know if that true or not.
The Wiki page is interestingly full of words like "suspected" and "possibly" on the warrant explanation. It is a fairly long read (for Wiki) and as usual not necessarily correct info, but not necessarily incorrect either.
Another interesting tidbit is that Koreshknew they were infiltrated, knew they were being investigated, Knew the raid was coming, knew the lead investigator with ATF and had offered for him to come to the compound and inspect all the firearms and their corresponding paperwork. That offer was declined by lead investigator Aguilera. And again, Koresh was frequently out of the compound in the local town and could have easily been apprehended during any of these trips. The county sheriff knew this.
One of the Branch Davidians was an FFL firearms dealer with a retail firearms business. I couldn't find anywhere whether that status included SOT's that allowed for the possession and/or manufacture of fully auto firearms or explosive devices. So, technically the transfer of firearms could have all been legal. None of this is addressed in the warrant info or post incident report by the FBI that I could find.
Seems the Feds wanted a confrontation and was very militaristic with US citizens. Too common on some fronts with the Feds. To borrow a phrase from Hunt for Red October the Feds were acting as "buckaroos".
The Wiki page is interestingly full of words like "suspected" and "possibly" on the warrant explanation. It is a fairly long read (for Wiki) and as usual not necessarily correct info, but not necessarily incorrect either.
Another interesting tidbit is that Koreshknew they were infiltrated, knew they were being investigated, Knew the raid was coming, knew the lead investigator with ATF and had offered for him to come to the compound and inspect all the firearms and their corresponding paperwork. That offer was declined by lead investigator Aguilera. And again, Koresh was frequently out of the compound in the local town and could have easily been apprehended during any of these trips. The county sheriff knew this.
One of the Branch Davidians was an FFL firearms dealer with a retail firearms business. I couldn't find anywhere whether that status included SOT's that allowed for the possession and/or manufacture of fully auto firearms or explosive devices. So, technically the transfer of firearms could have all been legal. None of this is addressed in the warrant info or post incident report by the FBI that I could find.
Seems the Feds wanted a confrontation and was very militaristic with US citizens. Too common on some fronts with the Feds. To borrow a phrase from Hunt for Red October the Feds were acting as "buckaroos".
As always YMMV
Well making assault rifles and machine guns for civilians was banned in 1986 by Ronald Reagan in the Gun Owners Protection Act of 1986 so they would of been felons if they would of made any full auto guns after 1986.Also David Koresh was a polygamist who was abusing children.They should not have fired on the ATF and they should of let the ATF and the FBI serve the warrant on Feb 28, 1993.They should been compliant and just let themselves get arrested and fight the feds in the courts with defense attorneys.
Location: East Texas, with the Clan of the Cave Bear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainwreck20
Funny, black man resists arrests and is killed, and it is 'he shouldn't have resisted'.
BDs resist and are killed and it is 'poor people didn't do anything wrong'
Doesn't make either right or wrong, but is an interesting difference....
Are you talking about St George of Floyd?
According to the courts there were 4 charged with a crime including murder and convicted. And if you're not speaking of that case I guess you'd have to tell us what you're speaking of. As of late the courts /officers of the courts have not treating black deaths as you describe. Let the guilty be convicted.
But this is definitely an apples vs oranges situation that you have illustrated. Even if GF died he was committing crimes and had ingested potentially lethal drugs. As far as I know those children in the BD compound were innocent of committing any crimes as well as (presumably) many of the adults. They were in their home . . . innocently. Aggressive law enforcement, in fact military type tactics were used, indiscriminately endangering innocents pretty much without regard to their innocence. Many innocent deaths resulted .
Yes, there were some interesting differences. And there was gross wrong done in Waco and there were no repercussions to law enforcement. The law enforcement in the St George of Floyd case were convicted in Federal Court.
Anyone can say the death of the innocents at the BD compound was caused by the potential violators of gun laws there and caused the death but I don't believe that. Indirectly maybe but the attack on the general population there led to the death of the children and other innocents. Plain and simple. Different methods could have easily prevented their deaths but impatience and need to make a power play changed the course of life for those who had not committed crimes and were not suspected of such. Law enforcement had the right to be more discriminating.
Yup, poor people. Innocent, totally innocent! Dozens of them!
The Wiki page is interestingly full of words like "suspected" and "possibly" on the warrant explanation. It is a fairly long read (for Wiki) and as usual not necessarily correct info, but not necessarily incorrect either.
Another interesting tidbit is that Koreshknew they were infiltrated, knew they were being investigated, Knew the raid was coming, knew the lead investigator with ATF and had offered for him to come to the compound and inspect all the firearms and their corresponding paperwork. That offer was declined by lead investigator Aguilera. And again, Koresh was frequently out of the compound in the local town and could have easily been apprehended during any of these trips. The county sheriff knew this.
One of the Branch Davidians was an FFL firearms dealer with a retail firearms business. I couldn't find anywhere whether that status included SOT's that allowed for the possession and/or manufacture of fully auto firearms or explosive devices. So, technically the transfer of firearms could have all been legal. None of this is addressed in the warrant info or post incident report by the FBI that I could find.
Seems the Feds wanted a confrontation and was very militaristic with US citizens. Too common on some fronts with the Feds. To borrow a phrase from Hunt for Red October the Feds were acting as "buckaroos".
As always YMMV
I'd agree LEOs and the FedGov. handled the Waco siege and ultimate confrontation horribly.
DK did in fact leave the compound regularly.
DK did engage in sexual activity with underage girls.....at least once marrying a 13/14yo by leveraging her parents to consent.
DK had a machine shop built and a couple of guys converted 46 recovered semi-auto firearms into illegal automatic weapons. FFL or not that's expressly illegal. Further, one of the guys involved claims they modified ~100 long guns to automatic fire. If that's correct DK gave away or sold several dozen illegal automatic rifles.
DK had gathered a number of practice hand grenades.
The radio "go" signal was, "Showtime"......the siege was called, "Operation Trojan Horse."
Undoubtedly the first shots fired the day of the fire were from Davidians.
The affidavit provided and sworn to by Aguilera contained numerous
errors and misrepresentations, which, taken together, create a seriously
flawed affidavit. The affidavit misstated that Koresh possessed a
British Boys anti-tank .52 caliber rifle, when in fact Koresh owned a
Barret light .50 firearm.\31\ Possession of the British Boys would have
been a felony \32\ while possession of the Barret was completely legal.
The affidavit misstated that the M16 parts kits from Nesard company were
two CAR and two EZ kits which contained all the parts of an M16 machine
gun except for the lower receiver unit, when, in fact, the Nesard parts
kits do not contain the auto sear and pin which are absolutely necessary
to convert semi automatic weapons to machine guns.\33\ The affidavit
failed to mention that grenade hulls like those cited in the affidavit
to help establish probable cause had been sold by the Davidians in the
past at gun shows as paper weights and mounted on plaques. Finally, the
affidavit was misleading by reporting that Deputy Sheriff Terry Fuller
was in the vicinity of the compound when he heard a loud explosion, but
then failed to report that Fuller investigated and learned that the
Davidians were using dynamite for construction.
According to the courts there were 4 charged with a crime including murder and convicted. And if you're not speaking of that case I guess you'd have to tell us what you're speaking of. As of late the courts /officers of the courts have not treating black deaths as you describe. Let the guilty be convicted.
But this is definitely an apples vs oranges situation that you have illustrated. Even if GF died he was committing crimes and had ingested potentially lethal drugs. As far as I know those children in the BD compound were innocent of committing any crimes as well as (presumably) many of the adults. They were in their home . . . innocently. Aggressive law enforcement, in fact military type tactics were used, indiscriminately endangering innocents pretty much without regard to their innocence. Many innocent deaths resulted .
Yes, there were some interesting differences. And there was gross wrong done in Waco and there were no repercussions to law enforcement. The law enforcement in the St George of Floyd case were convicted in Federal Court.
Anyone can say the death of the innocents at the BD compound was caused by the potential violators of gun laws there and caused the death but I don't believe that. Indirectly maybe but the attack on the general population there led to the death of the children and other innocents. Plain and simple. Different methods could have easily prevented their deaths but impatience and need to make a power play changed the course of life for those who had not committed crimes and were not suspected of such. Law enforcement had the right to be more discriminating.
Yup, poor people. Innocent, totally innocent! Dozens of them!
I never understand why those of your mindset somehow think that the "woke" community considered George Floyd as a Saint who did no wrong EVER in life.
Show me where JUST ONE person ever said such a thing.
George Floyd was a petty criminal who was, in fact, engaging in criminal activity the day he was killed. I think that EVERYONE (at least, everyone I know) is aware of that fact, and never denied it. Why would they?
The point is that he didn't deserve to die for passing a fake bill. I'm pretty sure that if someone were to grab your son and kneel on his damn neck for 9 whole minutes, you'd try to grab the nearest solid object and proceed to tear the perpetrator's head off.
But since Floyd was a big guy engaging in criminal activity with some possibly lethal drugs in his system, he "had it coming" eh?
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