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how hard is it to understan..... "yes".................
at that exact momenent in time...if it were commanded of me....yes.
Now keep in mind that at no point in time God, if I recall, does God ever speak to the people on a whole to do these things. It's always someone (Moses, Joshua, Samuel) who CLAIMS God told them to tell the people to do it (kill others). We find no problem with this?
Now keep in mind that at no point in time God, if I recall, does God ever speak to the people on a whole to do these things. It's always someone (Moses, Joshua, Samuel) who CLAIMS God told them to tell the people to do it (kill others). We find no problem with this?
Lets assume first that all the things in the Bible happened as the Bible said..(which I believe they did) and the Israelites had seen the plagues in Egypt, saw the Red Sea part, saw manna from heaven, all the things happen under the command of Moses...why wouldnt you believe? If I was a doubter and I was in the multitude of people crossing the red sea and the water moved to the side when we crossed..i think i could safely say i wouldnt have been a doubter when I got to the other side. To read about something versus seeing something for ones self is completly different. These people may have not heard Gods voice directly but they had def saw firsthand what God was capable of doing.
So, if you kill for the USA it is murder?? How many did 'we' kill in past wars? How many in Japan with the nuclear bombs? All through history such 'killing' has been going on. In most cases it was considered necessary. I am not condemning all wars, I do believe many were justified. So why is God's wars not justified? After all He created us all. Did you ever make something that you felt needed redone? Did you have to get the rest of the world's approval before you redid it?
The problem is the misunderstanding of the words 'kill' and murder'. It seems in this day and age all killing is considered murder. It used to be that 'murder' was something that was done with malice and foresight. It is too bad that the KJV translated the word as 'kill' instead of 'commit murder'. Newer translations do use the word 'murder' when speaking of the "thou shalt not" verses, both in the Old and New Testaments.
The 'gore and mayhem' in the Old Testament is repulsive to the modern day mind because 'we' have been programmed to think that way. It was not repulsive in times past. I am afraid even those of us who love God and His word have a tendency to see it differantly than we used to. :-(
God was, is, and always will be, nothing but fair in all His doings.
Gardeners will understand the following analogy: If we plant a plant that we love, but it goes wild and takes over the rest of the garden, to the detriment of the other plants that we love, we rip it out! We have the right to do that. God has the right to do the same with His 'plants'.
Lets assume first that all the things in the Bible happened as the Bible said..(which I believe they did) and the Israelites had seen the plagues in Egypt, saw the Red Sea part, saw manna from heaven, all the things happen under the command of Moses...why wouldnt you believe? If I was a doubter and I was in the multitude of people crossing the red sea and the water moved to the side when we crossed..i think i could safely say i wouldnt have been a doubter when I got to the other side. To read about something versus seeing something for ones self is completly different. These people may have not heard Gods voice directly but they had def saw firsthand what God was capable of doing.
So let's see, you are starting off by accepting SUBJECTIVE material as fact and then working in your explanation from there? Is it really that hard to at least entertain the idea that all of this was just nothing more than an unjust "war" to rob people of their land using some god as an excuse to justify the acts? That is far more common in human history than to actually believe some man wandering the desert heard from some voice in the sky to carry out acts of genocide. In fact, has it ever occurred to believers that there was certainly NO need for this god, if supposedly ALL powerful, to leave the dirty work up to mere humans? Why didn't he just rain down fire on those scumbag heathens or drop some plagues on them? Just the fact that humans entered the mix stating "well god told us to do it" should be enough to raise serious suspicions.
So, if you kill for the USA it is murder?? How many did 'we' kill in past wars? How many in Japan with the nuclear bombs? All through history such 'killing' has been going on. In most cases it was considered necessary. I am not condemning all wars, I do believe many were justified. So why is God's wars not justified? After all He created us all. Did you ever make something that you felt needed redone? Did you have to get the rest of the world's approval before you redid it?
The problem is the misunderstanding of the words 'kill' and murder'. It seems in this day and age all killing is considered murder. It used to be that 'murder' was something that was done with malice and foresight. It is too bad that the KJV translated the word as 'kill' instead of 'commit murder'. Newer translations do use the word 'murder' when speaking of the "thou shalt not" verses, both in the Old and New Testaments.
The 'gore and mayhem' in the Old Testament is repulsive to the modern day mind because 'we' have been programmed to think that way. It was not repulsive in times past. I am afraid even those of us who love God and His word have a tendency to see it differantly than we used to. :-(
God was, is, and always will be, nothing but fair in all His doings.
Gardeners will understand the following analogy: If we plant a plant that we love, but it goes wild and takes over the rest of the garden, to the detriment of the other plants that we love, we rip it out! We have the right to do that. God has the right to do the same with His 'plants'.
Why didn't god send the Israelites to say, the fertile crescent of Mesopotamia or the lush jungles of sub-Saharan Africa or even the beautiful expanse of the Americas to wipe out those evil heathens instead OR to settle next to them with all that space? Why did it make more sense to have them go start trouble with people who were not bothering them instead of simply handing Egypt over to them, a move which would have given them Canaan anyway, as Canaan was tributary to Egypt during those times?
The story sounds suspicious to me. Anytime ANYONE starts taking away the basic rights of others (right to live) because "God told us to," I would want to think that any sensible person could see that bull coming from a mile away.
Think about it. What is so different between Moses telling the Israelites that the Canaanites had weapons of mass CORRUPTION and George Bush lying through his teeth telling this nation Saddam had weapons of mass DESTRUCTION? Were not both used as basis to start a hostilities with ulterior motives?
So let's see, you are starting off by accepting SUBJECTIVE material as fact and then working in your explanation from there? Is it really that hard to at least entertain the idea that all of this was just nothing more than an unjust "war" to rob people of their land using some god as an excuse to justify the acts? That is far more common in human history than to actually believe some man wandering the desert heard from some voice in the sky to carry out acts of genocide. In fact, has it ever occurred to believers that there was certainly NO need for this god, if supposedly ALL powerful, to leave the dirty work up to mere humans? Why didn't he just rain down fire on those scumbag heathens or drop some plagues on them? Just the fact that humans entered the mix stating "well god told us to do it" should be enough to raise serious suspicions.
I view the Bible as THE word of God from God, not a collection of "stories" that are just made up. I thought you were really wanting to know why..but I see thats not the case. I thought you might, just might look at it from a different viewpoint, you know like, to understand why we believe what we do. But I guess not, this is just another thread poking at peoples beliefs that arent like yours.
Just replace "Christian" with "Fundamentalist Muslim" and we have the Jihad. I guess the Christians on here shouldn't complain about the Jihad then as they are saying they would have done the exact same thing. Those Muslims killing "in the name of God" today are doing the same thing.
Just replace "Christian" with "Fundamentalist Muslim" and we have the Jihad.
The thing is that the Jihad is a personal experience, just like Nietzsche described the process of becoming an Ubermensch*; it is a spiritual inner conflict which results in spiritual growth. You can't be born as an Ubermensch like so many Nazis believed. So an actual Jihad between Christians and Muslim is impossible.
Quote:
* Nietzsche posited the Ãœbermensch as a goal for humanity to set for itself in his 1883 book Thus Spoke Zarathustra (German: Also Sprach Zarathustra).
The book's protagonist, Zarathustra, contends that "man is something which ought to be overcome:"
All beings so far have created something beyond themselves; and do you want to be the ebb of this great flood and even go back to the beasts rather than overcome man? What is the ape to man? A laughingstock or a painful embarrassment. And man shall be just that for the overman: a laughingstock or a painful embarrassment…
I view the Bible as THE word of God from God, not a collection of "stories" that are just made up. I thought you were really wanting to know why..but I see thats not the case. I thought you might, just might look at it from a different viewpoint, you know like, to understand why we believe what we do. But I guess not, this is just another thread poking at peoples beliefs that arent like yours.
My original post was not about why you believe what or why you do, but whether or not you would have killed people in the "name of a god" in the early days of the Israelites. You told me you would have and I never asked you why after that. You simply explained why you would have and I just sat back stunned before presenting a scenario for better understanding.
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So an actual Jihad between Christians and Muslim is impossible.
