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Sure in the Old Testament of the Bible the only judgment of God would be believe in God or be wasted , because the devil was given authority to rule the earth by man and his corruption , as God had His honor to give the earth to man and not interfere .............. Still God tried to lead some people to Gods view , so God could have interaction with man as God plan would be fulfilled ............... Then God sent His son Jesus to become a judgment for man , which He did and was successful , where Jesus became the government for the earth , but needs the Children of God`s prayers to bring any advancement ................ Still if people reject Lord Jesus Christ then they would still be lost , as they give up their protection in life and after life , where God plan for the lost to God is not a desired plan for the people who chose that road ................. See then there is plan A which is judgment of the wrath of God , which overshadows the authority of control of man, .............. Or then there is Plan B which Power is given to Lord Jesus Christ governor of the earth to bring judgment to release Gods blessing to bring His blessing and will counter the wrath of God ................ Then there is the works of the flesh which is brought to the people and animals of the earth which is brought by the devil and his hordes , which is often confused with the wrath of God , or nature, act of God , but is by the devil , which can be redeemed by Lord Jesus , If His children would pray
Also, the entire concept of a god who will send one to eternal punishment for simply
not believing in him cannot be considered anything but "wrathful".
So you and Jer Z believe that?
I don't and couldn't...and why people get upset with me bec I don't blindly believe
all things written in that book.
If I did I would probably rather be an atheist or despise my very Creator!
The things that are imposed upon my Father doing are just awful...and why I believe
were made up by Man's primitive thinking.
It's been a week since I wrote the OP and said 'thems aren't fightin words'.
But, this morning I just felt like saying my veiw...which regrettfully may get some mad.
I see atheists' point in the idea that God is a murderous Being...and thus, their bewilderment
in how some love a God like this...I am also bewildered. And this is not my experience of Him.
I don't blame God for any of my misfortunes...if I cross on a Red Light and get hit,
it was was MY fault.
When I was a little girl (age 12) reading the Bible for myself in search of truth, the God of the Old testament seemed incredibly angry and vengeful to me and I was terrified of Him. As I got older and continued seeking the truth, I eventually had my own personal experiences with Him. Talk about Loving and liberating! Changed my entire world view and perception as well as my perception of the Bible. I got glimpses of love from my family (particularly my grandmother) but this was above and beyond and in its purest form.
I think if people perceive God to be wrathful, most people, it's because of what people have told them and by the spirit which those people share it with them. For those who read it themselves and perceive Him as wrathful, keep searching, because I am 100% sure that God is unconditionally loving. Yes, even the God of the Old Testament. I can't make you see it. No one else could make me see it either. BUt when I experienced it for myself, I knew beyond a doubt.
Now this I find hard to comprehend. I am not intending to debate this but want to try to understand what seems to be a real mental perception.
While this sudden revelation of a god of love (and this experience is so common and universal that I have to credit it as real) gives you a totally different view of God from that you derived from just reading the Bible, you still think it is the same God. I can understand that.
What I'd like to know is, do you think that what is described in the OT is myth and and not at all the behaviour of the God you experienced or do you believe it to be true and somehow Experience of god made you see it differently and not at all the actions of a wrathful and vengeful god?
Why do I believe God is wrathful? The Holocaust, 9/11, Boston Marathon bombing etc.. Take off your blinders, God isn't as great as he is made out to be.
Why do I believe God is wrathful? The Holocaust, 9/11,
Boston Marathon bombing etc..
Take off your blinders, God isn't as great as he is made out to be.
Ah, I see. Yes, if I believed God caused or was responsible for those I would think
God was simply AWFUL!!!
I was in a book club when a women (we all knew her to be a super angry Catholic, at each meeting)
was again angry bec her mom had just been mugged in California...she went on and on...when
I incredulously said, "Wait a minute, you are blaming GOD for this?"
And she angrily said, "YES!"
I was so dumbfounded by this belief my mouth was dropped for quite awhile.
I then understood why Kathy was so angry all the time.
I see creation differently...we were not made as puppets or robots, but as free agents to go out and make
our choices...evil minds have created many evil things...then the innocent get caught in
the crossfire.
I see it as the condition of Man at the moment...and hopefully it will change.
But, I also see a bigger picture...believing in reincarnation, the Other Side, NDE stories,
and in Reality there is no time or space...this is like the movie The Matrix...a Construct we are in at the moment...for reasons.
Ah, I see. Yes, if I believed God caused or was responsible for those I would think
God was simply AWFUL!!!
I was in a book club when a women (we all knew her to be a super angry Catholic, at each meeting)
was again angry bec her mom had just been mugged in California...she went on and on...when
I incredulously said, "Wait a minute, you are blaming GOD for this?"
And she angrily said, "YES!"
I was so dumbfounded by this belief my mouth was dropped for quite awhile.
I then understood why Kathy was so angry all the time.
I see creation differently...we were not made as puppets or robots, but as free agents to go out and make
our choices...evil minds have created many evil things...then the innocent get caught in
the crossfire.
I see it as the condition of Man at the moment...and hopefully it will change.
But, I also see a bigger picture...believing in reincarnation, the Other Side, NDE stories,
and in Reality there is no time or space...this is like the movie The Matrix...a Construct we are in at the moment...for reasons.
Now, I am not sure I totally believe it, but if there is a God like so many religions tell us there are, then we cannot always just call him this loving, wonderful God who only does good. I tend to think of God in a more deist fashion...
Just wondering. Them's aren't fightin' words....just "How come"...?
Thanx in advance.
Are you asking whether people think God is wrathful, or whether they know God is wrathful and still choose to believe? And are you asking whether the notion that God is wrathful is derived from what the Bible says or from personal experience?
I ask, because your question is not entirely clear to me.
If we take Scripture as a guide to the nature of God, the Bible does portray a wrathful god, many times. It is part of his nature. I don't think anyone reading the text can honestly disagree with that (the reasons for why he becomes/is wrathful don't really change the representation that he is wrathful at times - which I'm sure an apologetic believer will bring up: for example, "well, he only gets wrathful when people make him angrym, otherwise he's an okay guy").
The issue of Theodicy has been raised many times because of God's wrathful nature and seeming callousness to the suffering of the innocent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax
Because they have created their god in their own image?
I think you have hit it on the nail there! Even using examples of gods outside the Israelite god, virtually all the characteristics and institutions attributed to gods appear to have been based on human institutions (god as the father; the divine council), either as a reflection of them or as a justification for them. Humans identify with a god when there is the possibility of a connection, somehow. A counter example: the god of Spinoza (basically Nature, the Universe, etc. without a consciousness), while easily accessible via nature, does not possess the human traits that make us able to identify with him/her/it. It's much easier to have a god that kind of looks like you, acts like you and has similar goals to yourself - even if you do consider yourself a slave to that god, which was a very common feature of worship in the ANE (again, echoing actual reality where monarchs owned slaves, etc.).
You might enjoy the following response to David910, as it may illustrate how humans expect human qualities from God, only to one day realize that God works by his own rules - even if at the expense of humans. This is a far-cry from the originally Covenantal nature of God, however. Typically in the ANE (and in the Hebrew Bible), a god would be required to keep his/her part of a bargain with humans, just as the humans were required to keep their part of the bargain. It was a mutual agreement - a covenant. But the Israelite god, in the later literature of the Bible, is portrayed as totally uncontrollable by humans in this way. He even becomes more and more remote, until Jewish tradition ceased even uttering his name. This god became the god that was not found in nature or anywhere a human could somehow try to "coerce" him to appear (via the usual methods of the invocation of the name, sacrifice, etc.). The later Biblical authors became uncomfortable with a god that was too approachable, and portrayed a god that was entirely working under his own free will - not limited to Covenantal promises or human expectations of Just Reward for good behavior.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David910
Why do I believe God is wrathful? The Holocaust, 9/11, Boston Marathon bombing etc.. Take off your blinders, God isn't as great as he is made out to be.
After the Holocaust, Jewish belief in God severely dropped off statistically - for obvious reasons. This is the main question posed by the Theodicy Problem. If God is truly all-knowing, all-powerful and all-good - then why does he permit such evil attrocities from happening? If he is all-knowing, then he is surely aware of what is going on. If he is all-good, then he is surely not a fan of injustice and innocent suffering. If he is all-powerful, then he has the power to take care of such horrors.
But we know this doesn't happen. Even the Bible knew this didn't happen (just see the Book of Job and Ecclesiastes, for example - two of the most profound books in the Bible that try to wrestle with the problem of Theodicy, and who argue against the then-prevailing religious notions that if you were good, good things would happen to you). Against all our religious hopes and the promises that are seemingly made in the doctrine of Retributive Justice if we obey, Injustice is still a part of God's arsenal. The cheap way out, and one that would later arise with the advent of Dualism, was to place all the blame on the Devil: "Oh - you are being persecuted or are suffering? Well, that is exactly because you ARE good, and the Devil doesn't like that. Don't worry, though! It will all be okay in Heaven after you die, where true Justice will occur - and God will someday kick the Devil's butt. Some day..."
Dualism and the belief in Heaven removed some of the culpability of God's misrule over a Universe where the good suffered and the evil prospered. A convenient escape, but it might as well be yet another argument of Job's "friends" (or the poster hljc, above predictably) - who were admonished by God for telling lies to excuse God's behavior. God overpowered Job's accusations, and to this day the "Answer to Job" is empty and meaningless - except, perhaps, as a further revelation of God's true wrathful nature and what he thinks of puny mortals who try to imagine that they can expect any sort of human justice from a god (see Carl Jung's pyschoanalysis of God in his Answer to Job). Perhaps this falls in line with what Jaymax said? We expect certain human qualities from a god, but do not get them. He has slowly become the untoucheable God - all to absolve him of what is happening in the world that people have claimed he rules.
Now, I am not sure I totally believe it, but if there is a God like so m
any religions tell us there are, then we cannot always just call him
this loving, wonderful God who only does good.
I tend to think of God in a more deist fashion...
Well, this is actually a complicated topic, esp to put into words...I say that because so many
in their NDEs, for example have such a hard time when they "get" the Whole Picture all at once
in a place where there is no sense of time...!
If we see a little boy in a garden pulling off the wings of a butterfly...do we say that is evil...
(A Swami/Guru equated God to just that...an inquistive boy playing in a garden...wow...had never heard
that before, but it seemed to make sense to me.)
What appears as evil and bad to us here...I would have to question , is it? The Holocaust will brought up as if I have
never heard of it, naturally.
With that I would also have to say, there is One Power, One Source...so all the bad gets it's juice from ...
ultimately the One Source.
So, indeed, that would make the Creative Being...both good and bad....but it would also be relative....to one
playing in the garden...the creator of the garden and the one knowing it is all made up and all will
be eventually coming Home back in union with It one day....where there are no days, that is.
See, how it is hard to put into words? Ha!
The main thing is there's a Bigger Picture than what we see, obviously...I believe it is so very important and wise to consider many angles to what our puny senses perceive.
Are you asking whether people think God is wrathful, or whether they know God is wrathful and still choose to believe? And are you asking whether the notion that God is wrathful is derived from what the Bible says or from personal experience?
I ask, because your question is not entirely clear....
I am responding only to the above bec I have to run. I will be back with relish to read
what I have glanced at of your post.
Just respond anyway you'd like....it's all good...ramble or be direct....
I already see you are precise and thoughtful...I like that in a man.
Well, this is actually a complicated topic, esp to put into words...I say that because so many
in their NDEs, for example have such a hard time when they "get" the Whole Picture all at once
in a place where there is no sense of time...!
If we see a little boy in a garden pulling off the wings of a butterfly...do we say that is evil...
(A Swami/Guru equated God to just that...an inquistive boy playing in a garden...wow...had never heard
that before, but it seemed to make sense to me.)
What appears as evil and bad to us here...I would have to question , is it? The Holocaust will brought up as if I have
never heard of it, naturally.
With that I would also have to say, there is One Power, One Source...so all the bad gets it's juice from ...
ultimately the One Source.
So, indeed, that would make the Creative Being...both good and bad....but it would also be relative....to one
playing in the garden...the creator of the garden and the one knowing it is all made up and all will
be eventually coming Home back in union with It one day....where there are no days, that is.
See, how it is hard to put into words? Ha!
The main thing is there's a Bigger Picture than what we see, obviously...I believe it is so very important and wise to consider many angles to what our puny senses perceive.
Oh, trust me I believe there is a bigger picture than we can even dream of. The universe and existence is far too large for us to even think about comprehending. I am sure that trillion upon trillion of lightyears away in space there is another "earth" with people wondering the same thing. I just think that if there is a God out there, (s)he is not worried about us, but on the bigger picture. So, I find it incredibly when people seriously thank God for what happened to them. (S)he doesn't have time for you! (S)he is worried much bigger things!
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