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Snippet:Jesus said just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish for three days and three nights, so will He be in the heart of the earth. Was this accomplished?
The Passover for 33 AD was on a friday. If Jesus died on friday and rose again on sunday, three days would not have passed. So does that mean Jesus lied about when He would rise again? Does that mean the Church have to allegorize this in the same way we allegorize the days of Genesis? Not at all, Jesus did in fact stay in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights, literally. Here's how He did it.
Your interesting thesis is that Jesus had to die on the Thursday in order to be dead three days. Not only to match the whale belly three days of Jonah but the rising on the third day prophecy.
So let's see whether the gospels admit a death on the Thursday. Let's start from the day Jesus rose from the dead.
Matthew 8, Mark 16, Luke 24.1 John 20.1 the first day of the week which is Sunday. We know this because the previous day they rested because it was the Sabbath, (Saturday).
It was passover, too. We know that because the previous day, the day of the trial and crucifixion was the day of preparation. Matthew (27) says that the guards was posted on the day after the day of preparation - that must be the Passover. Matthew 27 and mark 15.42 say that the crucifixion was on the day of preparation.
So the day of preparation is Friday. It turns from Friday to Saturday and from the day or preparation to the Passover at evening in the Jewish reckoning. John 28.31 says that the legs of the victims have to be broken to finish them off, because the crucifixion has to be over by Friday evening. John also confirms that the trial before Pilate was before the Passover as the priests would not enter the praetorium so as to avoid being defiled from eating Passover.
It follows that the 'Last supper' had to be held before that and no later than Thursday and, since Jesus was arrested at night, appeared before the Sanhedrin early morning and was seen by Pilate and crucified the next day, Jesus cannot have died on Thurday or any earlier. Nor can that Last Supper have been the Passover feast, of course.
So we have Thursday (or earlier) last supper and arrest. Friday, day of preparation, trial and crucifixion.(day 1.)
Saturday, sabbath and passover. (day 2)
Sunday, Resurrection. (3rd day). And indeed Cleophas in Luke (24.21) mentions the handing over to Pilate and crucifixion and says that it is the thrird day since all that happened. Day three.
So, admittedly, it isn't much of the Friday or much of the Sunday that Jesus is dead, but the one full day of being in the whale's belly (Saturday) can include two other days and that is the best I can do for you - unless you want to rewrite the Bible.
Anything is possible in fairy tales, but the fact that a significant number of people don't/won't recognize it all a fairy tale is concerning.
The fact is that the gospel story has been believed by the overwhelming number of westerners as based on fact, wholly or substantially - and even by those who don't buy the christian -miracles aspect and insist that Jesus was a Jew and only a man.
That it is a fairy tale then requires some proving to those of the overwhelming concensus.
All I'm doing here is to show the Lantern that his reading of the death and resurrection story as being over four days rather than three does not fit with the Gospels.
Whether the Gospels fit with each other or are credible as anything but a fairy - tale is another matter.
Your interesting thesis is that Jesus had to die on the Thursday in order to be dead three days. Not only to match the whale belly three days of Jonah but the rising on the third day prophecy.
So let's see whether the gospels admit a death on the Thursday. Let's start from the day Jesus rose from the dead.
Matthew 8, Mark 16, Luke 24.1 John 20.1 the first day of the week which is Sunday. We know this because the previous day they rested because it was the Sabbath, (Saturday).
It was passover, too. We know that because the previous day, the day of the trial and crucifixion was the day of preparation. Matthew (27) says that the guards was posted on the day after the day of preparation - that must be the Passover. Matthew 27 and mark 15.42 say that the crucifixion was on the day of preparation.
So the day of preparation is Friday. It turns from Friday to Saturday and from the day or preparation to the Passover at evening in the Jewish reckoning. John 28.31 says that the legs of the victims have to be broken to finish them off, because the crucifixion has to be over by Friday evening. John also confirms that the trial before Pilate was before the Passover as the priests would not enter the praetorium so as to avoid being defiled from eating Passover.
It follows that the 'Last supper' had to be held before that and no later than Thursday and, since Jesus was arrested at night, appeared before the Sanhedrin early morning and was seen by Pilate and crucified the next day, Jesus cannot have died on Thurday or any earlier. Nor can that Last Supper have been the Passover feast, of course.
So we have Thursday (or earlier) last supper and arrest. Friday, day of preparation, trial and crucifixion.(day 1.)
Saturday, sabbath and passover. (day 2)
Sunday, Resurrection. (3rd day). And indeed Cleophas in Luke (24.21) mentions the handing over to Pilate and crucifixion and says that it is the thrird day since all that happened. Day three.
So, admittedly, it isn't much of the Friday or much of the Sunday that Jesus is dead, but the one full day of being in the whale's belly (Saturday) can include two other days and that is the best I can do for you - unless you want to rewrite the Bible.
RESPONSE:
It's easier if one looks at the number of nights involved. Friday night and Saturday night. But that's only two nights.
Your interesting thesis is that Jesus had to die on the Thursday in order to be dead three days. Not only to match the whale belly three days of Jonah but the rising on the third day prophecy.
So let's see whether the gospels admit a death on the Thursday. Let's start from the day Jesus rose from the dead.
Matthew 8, Mark 16, Luke 24.1 John 20.1 the first day of the week which is Sunday. We know this because the previous day they rested because it was the Sabbath, (Saturday).
It was passover, too. We know that because the previous day, the day of the trial and crucifixion was the day of preparation. Matthew (27) says that the guards was posted on the day after the day of preparation - that must be the Passover. Matthew 27 and mark 15.42 say that the crucifixion was on the day of preparation.
So the day of preparation is Friday. It turns from Friday to Saturday and from the day or preparation to the Passover at evening in the Jewish reckoning. John 28.31 says that the legs of the victims have to be broken to finish them off, because the crucifixion has to be over by Friday evening. John also confirms that the trial before Pilate was before the Passover as the priests would not enter the praetorium so as to avoid being defiled from eating Passover.
It follows that the 'Last supper' had to be held before that and no later than Thursday and, since Jesus was arrested at night, appeared before the Sanhedrin early morning and was seen by Pilate and crucified the next day, Jesus cannot have died on Thurday or any earlier. Nor can that Last Supper have been the Passover feast, of course.
So we have Thursday (or earlier) last supper and arrest. Friday, day of preparation, trial and crucifixion.(day 1.)
Saturday, sabbath and passover. (day 2)
Sunday, Resurrection. (3rd day). And indeed Cleophas in Luke (24.21) mentions the handing over to Pilate and crucifixion and says that it is the thrird day since all that happened. Day three.
So, admittedly, it isn't much of the Friday or much of the Sunday that Jesus is dead, but the one full day of being in the whale's belly (Saturday) can include two other days and that is the best I can do for you - unless you want to rewrite the Bible.
This would be correct if the Preparation Day was Friday. Yet, this was no ordinary week. John explains that the Sabbath that was approaching, was a high day. In other words, the first day of Passover, is considered a special Sabbath. We know Passover occurred Friday, so Friday was in fact, a Sabbath. Making the preparation day, Thursday.
We also know that the days in Israel ran from evening to evening. We also know that Jesus was arrested on the same night of the Last Supper, and was put to death during the daylight hours. This ultimately means Jesus issued the Last Supper, was arrested, and put to death on the same day. That day was the 14th.
This would be correct if the Preparation Day was Friday. Yet, this was no ordinary week. John explains that the Sabbath that was approaching, was a high day. In other words, the first day of Passover, is considered a special Sabbath. We know Passover occurred Friday, so Friday was in fact, a Sabbath. Making the preparation day, Thursday.
We also know that the days in Israel ran from evening to evening. We also know that Jesus was arrested on the same night of the Last Supper, and was put to death during the daylight hours. This ultimately means Jesus issued the Last Supper, was arrested, and put to death on the same day. That day was the 14th.
That's quite ingenious. But it doesn't quite work that way. If the Sabbath was approaching that would be a Saturday, passover or not, so the crucifixion would still have to be a Friday and the 'day of preparation'. If there is a convenient date that has a Passover day falling on a Friday with the Sabbath - Saturday -following, then that might work, with the day of preparation being on Thursday since Friday was the day of the Passover Seder feast and being regarded as a 'sabbath'. And Luke could be referring to three days after the day of the crucifixion.
Does anyone know whether there would be such a sequence of dates around 30 AD? Incidentally, we don't 'know' that the Passover occurred Friday. That is your assumption to make this two - day Sabbath theory of yours work.
That's quite ingenious. But it doesn't quite work that way. If the Sabbath was approaching that would be a Saturday, passover or not, so the crucifixion would still have to be a Friday and the 'day of preparation'. If there is a convenient date that has a Passover day falling on a Friday with the Sabbath - Saturday -following, then that might work, with the day of preparation being on Thursday since Friday was the day of the Passover Seder feast and being regarded as a 'sabbath'. And Luke could be referring to three days after the day of the crucifixion.
Does anyone know whether there would be such a sequence of dates around 30 AD? Incidentally, we don't 'know' that the Passover occurred Friday. That is your assumption to make this two - day Sabbath theory of yours work.
The writer of matthew wrote the texts from a Greek perspective and probably was not aware the sabbath started on the eve. With so many wrong fulfilled prophesies esp the virgin myth, the casual reading appears to transpire over three calendar days.
I certainly had no idea that the sabbath began on the eve and in my childhood days began at sunrise not sunset and the real start of a day was midnight.
Genesis 1 has this
And the evening and the morning were the nth day
Western culture had/has days divided into 4 segments morning, afternoon, evening and night. The scriptural rendition of genesis is thus foreign and thus evening and morning encapsulates 3/4s of a day if one takes it to be inclusive.
I find it hard to believe that ancient man saw beginning of days and seasons any different to what we perceive them to be today. IOW, the start of a day is at sunrise and the end of that day is at sunset. It is not like back then they had electricity to extend the day.
IMO the "change" to the evening being the start is a set up on the exodus myth where it seemed all the crap happened at night including the "great escape".
Do the Jews follow the pattern of the midnight start when it comes to birthdays? I was born on the 16th at 11:47pm. I have always celebrated the birthday on the 16th.
I would hazard a guess that days and nights back then before timepieces, days were from sunrise to sunrise as a cycle.
As man developed cognisance of the "observed solar cycle", midday and midnight came about eventually. Ancient man had no method of time measurement at night even with the advent of the sundial. Ancient astronomers could observe the moving night sky but how would they benchmark the movement or even calculate time? The passage of time and observation and perhaps the built-in "biological clock" were the only way unless they had hour glasses but that only came about in the 8th century.
The notion that the Earth revolves around the Sun had been proposed as early as the 3rd century BC by Aristarchus of Samos, but had received no support from most other ancient astronomers.
It was not until the 16th century that a fully predictive mathematical model of a heliocentric system was presented, by the Renaissance mathematician, astronomer, and Catholic cleric Nicolaus Copernicus of Poland, leading to the Copernican Revolution.
What does this say?
It seems the "always so" claims fall flat on their face once again. It is interesting that the heliocentric model was already around at the time of the alleged birth of jesus.
How much of this then "new age science" could have made its way into the bible?
The more you look at other indicators, the more it seems likely the biblical accounts evolved over time and were edited to incorporate new findings, pretty much the same way current believers are forced to acknowledge an old earth based on overwhelming evidence and accept evolution albeit in a warped sense pasting their big yellow godunnit stickers all over it.
There was a previous discussion on the timing of the crucifixion and the trial and stuff about the 'Gallus-crow' being a Roman military trumpet signal and the meaning of '6th hour' and it was very hard to get it all straight, but the impression I got at the end was that the Jewish reckoning of a new day beginning at evening might well have been matched by the Roman reckoning of day and night - hours.
Looking at the four accounts, in the light of your comments, the synoptics appear to say that Jesus dies quite early on in the afternoon and Arimathea only approached Pilate to ask for the body in the evening. There is obviously room for some fudging of the times to minimize the apparent gap between the death and the taking down from the cross. The one thing that is clear (If I may be forgiven for making the point again ) is that the synoptics say the same thing in the same order using the same phrasing (with editing) because their accounts are derived from a single original written text and NOT because they are eyewitnesses.
And the Synoptic account differs in significant respects from the account of John. In John of course the Jews make the point that the crucifixions have to be over by sundown because of the approaching Sabbath, because it was Passover (which in the context of the thread, implies that the crucifixion was ok on the day of preparation but not on the passover which was a sabbath either coincidentally with the passover or because it WAS the day of passover. I can only say that the accounts to not make this clear and give the impression of one intervening day, not two - the Passover Sabbath followed by the Sunday).
There are a number of possibilities and I would prefer to keep them all in mind if they seem feasibly valid, without deciding that one or the other explanation is true, just because it suits me to think so.
What I think is obvious is that the divergences in the synoptics must reflect individual editing by the writers and is likely to be based on some whim or idea of theirs, and also (despite what our Pal Eusebius says) serious divergences of the synoptics from John indicate that someone is not telling the truth. But even then I can't be sure who.
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) is that the synoptics say the same thing in the same order using the same phrasing (with editing) because their accounts are derived from a single original written text and NOT because they are eyewitnesses.
