Pascal's Wager: Struggling with my religion (salvation, Buddhist, Jehovah, hell)

[L'Artiste]

*I didn't intend for this be long*
I would put this in the Christian forum but I don't feel like getting tons of passages or people not trying to understand to my question or illogical responses.

so I'm I guess what you call a christian agnostic(i believe there is a god and its the god of the bible but I'm still unsure) I was raised on the belief in god, a baptist but went to catholic school, and i had great faith in god and jesus and resurrection etc etc.. until I met born again Christians who were some what of cult and ruined it,affected me psychology.. its been about 4-5 years since they initial recruited me and about 2 years since I left, and to this day I am still haunted by the things that happened with that church..
which has ruined my faith for good

so now i am holding on to my religion, but only because the fear of hell...which would send me to hell anyway i assume..i'm starting to question things that i have never questioned before i met them..with all the bible contradictions,how christianity/religion has fueled genocide and slavery as well as current events of hatemongering,the tons of christian sects,mass corruption with pedophilia and hypocrisy etc.Then I also realized another reason why I still follow this religion besides the fear of hell is because i was raised on it, had i been born in China I may be a buddhist, had i been born in india i may be a hindu, had i been born in middle east i'd be a muslim.

What am I asking is, what to do to actually want to follow God? And not because its being forced upon me with the threat of hell?

[mgt04]

Well for one, we should never let fear run our lives, be it christian, atheist, jewish, etc. Funny because thats how terrorism works...terrorists seek to instill fear into the people they terrorize through shootings, bombs, etc. I'm sure with the million different variations of christian churches out there, one of them has to preach without the threat of hell.

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by L'Artiste

*I didn't intend for this be long*
I would put this in the Christian forum but I don't feel like getting tons of passages or people not trying to understand to my question or illogical responses.

so I'm I guess what you call a christian agnostic(i believe there is a god and its the god of the bible but I'm still unsure) I was raised on the belief in god, a baptist but went to catholic school, and i had great faith in god and jesus and resurrection etc etc.. until I met born again Christians who were some what of cult and ruined it,affected me psychology.. its been about 4-5 years since they initial recruited me and about 2 years since I left, and to this day I am still haunted by the things that happened with that church..
which has ruined my faith for good

so now i am holding on to my religion, but only because the fear of hell...which would send me to hell anyway i assume..i'm starting to question things that i have never questioned before i met them..with all the bible contradictions,how christianity/religion has fueled genocide and slavery as well as current events of hatemongering,the tons of christian sects,mass corruption with pedophilia and hypocrisy etc.Then I also realized another reason why I still follow this religion besides the fear of hell is because i was raised on it, had i been born in China I may be a buddhist, had i been born in india i may be a hindu, had i been born in middle east i'd be a muslim.

What am I asking is, what to do to actually want to follow God? And not because its being forced upon me with the threat of hell?

Rather than tell you what to think, I'd suggest that you discuss it here (a good choice as you'll get ideas rather than Bible - quotes) and reason your way to where you are comfortable.

I do think that Hell - fear is something that needs redressing and is a bit of a rebuke to Christianity or any kind of theism. And Christians have argued themselves that they believe out of love, not fear. So I think it would be legitimate to discuss with you very good reasons to reject the Hell -threat as credible, though sheer fear of the idea will probably never entirely go away. I find it can disturb and I have never been a believer.

That said, you could find some other approach to Christianity or one of the denominations, or just admire Jesus as a teacher, perhaps inspired by God, if not actually related to Him.

God is again a different matter. Even if you couldn't continue with Christianity, you could continue with God as a universal spirit with a plan for the earth and its inhabitants but intending nothing but good for them, notwithstanding our mistakes. After all, what just God would punish us in such a terrible way for being the way we were made?

True, the pot can't argue with the potter, but any potter who messes up his pot and then blames the pot is such a bad and self - justifying workman that he doesn't deserve respect, let alone love.

[irish_bob]

Originally Posted by L'Artiste

*I didn't intend for this be long*
I would put this in the Christian forum but I don't feel like getting tons of passages or people not trying to understand to my question or illogical responses.

so I'm I guess what you call a christian agnostic(i believe there is a god and its the god of the bible but I'm still unsure) I was raised on the belief in god, a baptist but went to catholic school, and i had great faith in god and jesus and resurrection etc etc.. until I met born again Christians who were some what of cult and ruined it,affected me psychology.. its been about 4-5 years since they initial recruited me and about 2 years since I left, and to this day I am still haunted by the things that happened with that church..
which has ruined my faith for good

so now i am holding on to my religion, but only because the fear of hell...which would send me to hell anyway i assume..i'm starting to question things that i have never questioned before i met them..with all the bible contradictions,how christianity/religion has fueled genocide and slavery as well as current events of hatemongering,the tons of christian sects,mass corruption with pedophilia and hypocrisy etc.Then I also realized another reason why I still follow this religion besides the fear of hell is because i was raised on it, had i been born in China I may be a buddhist, had i been born in india i may be a hindu, had i been born in middle east i'd be a muslim.

What am I asking is, what to do to actually want to follow God? And not because its being forced upon me with the threat of hell?

paschalls wager is a tad silly , look at it this way , thier is an old story about a peasant in soviet russia who refused to clap when uncle joe took to the stage in some region of russia and began his fantastic routine , the peasant was taken out and shot , he could have feigned excitement and adoration and it would have saved his hide

that was stalin , god is even more powerfull , more vengefull and more narcisistic than he was , he can also read minds so even you pray your ass off , he will know if your only doing it as a way of avoiding the ovens down below , if god is going to send you to hell , you cannot do anything about it , live your life , dont commit any serious crime , treat those around you well , the rest is out of your hands

[Hueffenhardt]

Originally Posted by L'Artiste

What am I asking is, what to do to actually want to follow God? And not because its being forced upon me with the threat of hell?

If you don't want to follow a god now, don't. There is no need to try to make yourself want to.

It seems to me that your real problem is that you fear going to hell; that seems to be what is causing the discomfort and anguish.

You mentioned Pascal's Wager in the title. Are you familiar with why it doesn't work?

Some of what follows comes from: Pascal's Wager Refuted And some of it comes from me.

"Pascal's Wager (call it "PW") may be formulated as follows:

(a) If God exists, then whoever doesn't believe in him will end up being eternally tormented.
(b) If God exists, then whoever believes in him will gain eternal life.
(c) If God doesn't exist, then whether or not people believe in him can't matter very much.
(d) Hence [from (a)-(c)], nontheists are running a grave risk. At the very least, the expected utility of their belief situation is infinitely worse than that of theists.
(e) But such people are able to self-induce theistic belief.
(f) Therefore [from (d) & (e)], all nontheists ought to change their beliefs and become theists.

Here are some objections to PW:"


* If God exists and he does eternally torment non-believers, then I don't want anything to do will him. He is evil and heartless, and I would rather be tormented than align with him. Let my pain stand as a testament to his evilness.


"* According to the Bible, more is required for salvation than mere belief in God. One also needs to believe in God's son (Mark 16:16; John 3:18,36, 8:21-25, 14:6; Acts 4:10-12; I John 5:12), repent (Luke 13:3,5), be born again (John 3:3), be born of the water and of the Spirit (John 3:5), believe everything in the gospel (Mark 16:16), eat the flesh of Jesus and drink his blood (John 6:53), be like a child (Mark 10:15), and do good deeds, esp. for needy people (Matt. 25:41-46; Rom. 2:5-10; John 5:28-29; James 2:14-26). Therefore, premise (b) of PW is not generally true, so far as the Bible is concerned. And, furthermore, apart from the Bible, there is no reason whatever to believe that premise. Thus, PW's premise (b) can reasonably be doubted.


* Many people who believe in God devote significant time to prayer and church activities. Such people presumably also contribute money, perhaps a tithe (10% of their income). Without that belief, most of them would not do such things. In addition, many such people go through life with inhibitions on both thought and behavior. (Consider, for example, inhibitions regarding sexual practices, marriage & divorce, birth control, abortion, reading material, and association with other people.) In many cases, those inhibitions are quite extreme and may have great effects on one's life and the lives of others. In some communities, women are oppressed on the basis of theistic belief. Also, some theists have persecuted and even killed others (as in inquisitions, religious wars, attacks on homosexuals, abortionists, etc.) because of their belief that that is what God wants them to do. Furthermore, some people (e.g., clergymen) devote their entire lives to God. For these various reasons, even if God does not exist, it would indeed matter a great deal whether or not one believes in God, at least for most such believers. It follows that premise (c) of PW is false.


* It may be that God does not exist and, instead, some other being rules the universe. That being may dislike intensely and may inflict infinite punishment on anyone who believes in God or who believes anything out of self-interest (as recommended in PW). But a person who comes to believe in God on the basis of PW would in that case be in "a heap of trouble," even though God does not exist. The expected utility of the theist's belief situation would be infinitely worse than that of the nontheist. It follows that premise (c) of PW is false."


* Stated in a slightly different way, if one picks Jehovah and you should have picked Zeus, then believers in Jehovah are in a heap of trouble. There are an infinite number of possible gods out there. If you pick one and I pick none, our odds are nearly the same given how many chances we have of being wrong. And if you believe in all gods, and there is only one, he may be jealous and torment you for it.


"* To believe in God, one must believe propositions that are, from the standpoint of most nontheists, impossible (or at least very hard) to believe. For that reason, PW's premise (e) can be rejected.


* Belief is not directly subject to the will. So, it is impossible (or at least very difficult) for nontheists to self-induce theistic belief. This also renders PW's premise (e) false.


For all of these reasons, PW ought to be rejected."

* PW offers a false dichotomy, that there are only these two possibilities. It might be that God does exist and doesn't care whether or not you believe in him, but rewards good behavior regardless, or rewards critical thinking and skepticism. Then it would be the non-skeptics that miss out on rewards.

The worst thing that can happen to a believer who is wrong is to find out he served the wrong god, and have the real god torture him forever because he is a jealous god and doesn't like you serving the wrong god.

* If a god exists and is any good at all, he will not condemn people who do not believe in him.

If there is a god that sends non-believers to hell, I want nothing to do with a god like that. I'd never worship a god that does that. So, if hell gets me away from that monster, to hell I'll go.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by L'Artiste

What am I asking is, what to do to actually want to follow God? And not because its being forced upon me with the threat of hell?

If I were you I would forget about the threats and the fear... and forget about the atrocities done in the name of religion... and the bad people who claimed to be religious but harmed you...

... instead go back to square 1 and focus on one single question: Is there any reason(s) you think can think of to think there even IS a god at all.

I have been asking that question for over 17 years and so far the answer is a definite "no". Perhaps you could ask yourself the same thing.

If you decide there is good reason to think there is such an entity then you can start from basics on discovering your "path to god" and your way in life.

If you decide there is no good reason to think there is a god... as I have... then worrying about things like "hell" also becomes pointless as there clearly is unlikely to be such things either.

[reed067]

One of the many things that turned me away from Christianity was the idea of a ALL loving God send those he profess to love to a burning hell. It makes no sense what so ever but then again fear can be a strong motivation for some. Growing up here in the bible-belt with hellfire and brimstone sermons all your life can have a negative effect. For others it can push them away from church/ God, etc. I think many people fall in line so to speak because of the threat of hell. I guess in your case focusing on the positive would be better, even though it's not easy at times. Even as a Pagan I've doubted my faith at times we all do because we're human. Stay strong in what you believe & you'll be fine.

[PatsCats]

Have you tried your local Unitarian Universalist church? The Unitarians and Universalists were two separate groups until they merged in 1961. Their original beliefs were based around the God of the Bible, and that He is not three persons but one (Unitarians) and that God will save all (Universalists).

Today they are different, welcoming people of all faiths (and questioners), but you might want to start there.

[reed067]

Originally Posted by PatsCats

Have you tried your local Unitarian Universalist church? The Unitarians and Universalists were two separate groups until they merged in 1961. Their original beliefs were based around the God of the Bible, and that He is not three persons but one (Unitarians) and that God will save all (Universalists).

Today they are different, welcoming people of all faiths (and questioners), but you might want to start there.

THIS! I've been to a couple of UU churches & they talk about hope NOT hell.

[Pleroo]

Originally Posted by L'Artiste

What am I asking is, what to do to actually want to follow God? And not because its being forced upon me with the threat of hell?

Imo, you can't actually want to follow a God who threatens you with hell for not believing in God (and, of course, you have to believe the "right" things about God and Jesus, which varies depending on who you're talking to) unless you are comfortable with all the other people who believe the "wrong" things existing in eternal torment. And if you are comfortable with the idea of other people being in eternal torment, aside from the fact that means you're really twisted, it also means that you can't possibly love those people. If that's the case, then you certainly can't be following Jesus' command to love everyone, even your "enemies".

Now, why would a God who the bible claims IS LOVE, and commands you to love, set up a sick and disgusting system of contradiction that promotes hate like the doctrine of eternal torment does?

Stop trying to want to follow that god. It's evil.