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Location: where people are either too stupid to leave or too stuck to move
3,982 posts, read 6,701,834 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIMBAM
I think the most pernicious aspect of the concept of hell is that it removes the ability to be truly altruistic. We should be good for the sake of being good, not because we have a gun to our head. Otherwise, how are we supposed to truly explore the nature of our own soul? How are we supposed to truly explore what it means to be good if it's only for a reward?
Moreover, the evidence for hell seems shaky at best. Looking at the history of religion in ancient europe and the near east, it seems clear to me that hell is a concept from the pre-christian polytheistic faiths of the mediterranean that was adopted into Christianity when these people converted, and somehow it later became the mainstream when the early Roman Church councils decided, right or wrong, on the current versions of the gospels from the many competing copies and decided on the interpretations. Early Christians, Aramaic speaking Christians from the Levant, like the Essenes, didn't believe in Hell. The Jews, the original people who recorded a Judeo Christian god, also don't have a concept of hell and the idea is only introduced of worlds above and below when they start tallking to the ancient Greeks who believe in Hades (which I doubt you believe in). If you read Ecclesiastes you'll see what they're grappeling with are concepts from greek philosophy, a new and interesting, but foreign set of principles. Qoheleth seems rather agnostic on the worldview of the Greek philosophers who believed in worlds above and below, but he grapples on what they would mean anyhow. Looking at the history this way, and at how much of a contradiction the modern idea of hell that morphed out of early thinkers being exposed to Ancient Greek Hades is, it seems clear to me it's a concept from outside Christianity that survived as part of the doctrine because it was successful for converting early pagans. Later it was good for maintaining control over the congregations during a very volatile period of human history where this threat was needed. Same reason we have a tree in our house at Christmas, which we celebrate on the Winter Solstice: elements of the pagan past persist. As such, there doesn't seem to be much of a basis for belief in a hell even if you do believe in the Judeo-Christian deity.
I think it could also help to explore the beliefs oh Hindus, and Buddhists like you were talking about earlier, it may give you some additional insights into the nature of the divine. You certainly wouldn't be the first devout Christian to do so and find the experience edifying. As a note, take what I say with grain of salt, I'm a non-believer even if I am interested in the subject for intellectual reasons.
i have watched a documentary on how hell evolved from different points of view and how dante's inferno made it more visual.. and explanations of other religions view on hell...however what you said it very deeeeep...goodness
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt
There doesn't have to be a reason. Why must there be a reason? Reality is what it is regardless of whether or not we don't like that there might not be a reason. But, surely, you see that there could not be a reason, right? The world we see before us could be exactly as it is now and there be no reason for it. Surely, that is possible. Therefore, there doesn't have to be a reason.
You should also know by the way that it is absolutely, logically impossible for a god (if one exists) to be both all-loving and all-powerful given that needless human suffering exists, and how do we know it is needless? Because if god is all-powerful, then any purpose he might have for our suffering (whatever growth, learning, etc, that we might get through suffering) could be accomplished without us actually having to suffer, again if he were all-powerful. If he is all-powerful, he is the one who established the relationship that one can only develop patience or whatever through suffering. However, if he is all-powerful, he could have set things up such that the best way to develop patience is through licking lollipops or whatever. An all-powerful god makes all the rules and is subject to no pre-established relationships between concepts. He could make life and growth anyway he wanted to, yet chose to invent suffering, not because it is better (remember he can make anything be the best teacher), but simply because he wanted to chose suffering. That is not all-loving, in fact that is sadistic because the suffering did not have to be. The argument is fully fleshed out here: https://www.city-data.com/forum/relig...erful-all.html
well if there is no reason and we just turn to dust, we won't know really because we'll be gone.. a scary thought but i assume it would be like sleeping. but i agree with the logic of all loving, all powerful...maybe he's just trolling us...lol i don't know
i believe there is a god or some higher power because i feel like there has to be a point to why we're here and why we exist and build homes and civilization and raise kids and do good or bad, there must be a reason,....
I think this is the crux of your problem. You can't accept that we are nothing more than one of millions of species of life forms that share the planet together, that we are all just here, for no other reason than we just are! Once you get to grips with the fact that there does not have to be a 'reason' for us (or any other creature) being here, that there is no 'after-life' or gods to be afraid of, you will feel more comfortable.
i believe there is a god or some higher power because i feel like there has to be a point to why we're here and why we exist and build homes and civilization and raise kids and do good or bad, there must be a reason
Why must there be? The universe has managed against the odds to give you life. It does not owe us a reason for it.
Yeah, I have never seen anything supernatural either. However, some people do
This we do not know to be true at all. We know some people CLAIM that they have. Despite the number of people doing so however we still have no evidence, argument, data or reasons on offer to believe a shred of it.
Yet all the time we are discovering ways and means for people to see things that are not there all the time.
So forgive me if I am overly logical but... in a world with no evidence at all to support the claim that people see something supernatural... and plenty of evidence of them seeing things that are not there all the time... it would seem foolish to put ones money on the former.
Why must there be? The universe has managed against the odds to give you life. It does not owe us a reason for it.
I dont know if there is an overriding reason for our existence. No one does. Perhaps there is, perhaps there isnt. But either way it doesnt mean God does not exist. The best arguments for there being A God (Christian or otherwise) for me are:
1) Life cannot spring from non-life. - or at least no scientist has ever proven it. No matter how many billions of years or "rich" the primordial ooze. Some one/entity likley got things started.
2) The Big Bang is accepted doctrine for the creation of the Universe. Did it begin spontaneously/by itself? Doubtful. How? There most likely was a catalyst, or a starter, ie, God.
3) There is Something rather than Nothing. Why? Who or what decided that. It would be "simpler" if there were nothing (the argument of the naturalist prefers the simplest rationale). But indeed, there is Something.
4) Fine tuning of the universe. There are numerous examples of how we would not exist, at all, without complete alignment with the extremely prescriptive laws of quantum phsyics.
5) Entropy says ther natural order of thing is chaos, not order. Yet humans are very complex systems that formed from nature. To suggest there was not a "guiding hand", at least, seems rather fanciful.
The best arguments for there being A God (Christian or otherwise) for me are:
1) Life cannot spring from non-life. - or at least no scientist has ever proven it. No matter how many billions of years or "rich" the primordial ooze. Some one/entity likley got things started.
Not necessarily. 'Life' could always have existed somewhere in the universe in some form or other and arrived here in a number of ways.
Quote:
2) The Big Bang is accepted doctrine for the creation of the Universe. Did it begin spontaneously/by itself? Doubtful. How? There most likely was a catalyst, or a starter, ie, God.
BB is the accepted doctrine for the creation of THIS universe. Nobody knows what was here before. The universe may always have existed in some form or other. You are making the classic theist mistake. You note that the universe exists and then you immediately jump to the unfounded assumption that there just HAD to be a time when it didn't exist. Can you provide any verifiable evidence whatsoever that there was a time when the universe did not exist in some form or other?
Quote:
3) There is Something rather than Nothing. Why? Who or what decided that. It would be "simpler" if there were nothing (the argument of the naturalist prefers the simplest rationale). But indeed, there is Something.
There may always have been 'something'.
Quote:
4) Fine tuning of the universe. There are numerous examples of how we would not exist, at all, without complete alignment with the extremely prescriptive laws of quantum phsyics.
That does not mean that no life would have developed. It just means that any life that developed under different conditions would have developed differently to the way in which we have developed.
Quote:
5) Entropy says ther natural order of thing is chaos, not order. Yet humans are very complex systems that formed from nature. To suggest there was not a "guiding hand", at least, seems rather fanciful.
Not necessarily. 'Life' could always have existed somewhere in the universe in some form or other and arrived here in a number of ways.
Pure SPECULATION. And how did THAT foreign life come about elsewhere in the cosmos? Regardless of where IT may have come from, life doesnt spring spontaneously from non-life.
BB is the accepted doctrine for the creation of THIS universe. Nobody knows what was here before. The universe may always have existed in some form or other. You are making the classic theist mistake. You note that the universe exists and then you immediately jump to the unfounded assumption that there just HAD to be a time when it didn't exist. Can you provide any verifiable evidence whatsoever that there was a time when the universe did not exist in some form or other?
The Big Bang had a BEGINNING. Therefore there was a time when it did not exist. As far as existing in a "different form"? Sure, why not. You clearly have a better imagination that I do.
There may always have been 'something'.
Always? Meaning what exactly? You can no more prove that than I can disprove it.
That does not mean that no life would have developed. It just means that any life that developed under different conditions would have developed differently to the way in which we have developed.
"Different Life"? Again, pure SPECULATION. Life based on something besides carbon is far out there. Do you also advocate space aliens and giant worms?
Not the 2nd Law again!!!!
Again and Again. It just makes too much sense.
See bold
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