The End of Pascal's Wager: Only Nontheists Go to Heaven (atheist, Muslims)
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This short thesis is quite convincing. I will post the intro, last paragraph and conclusion. Please read the entire argument at link.
The following argument could be taken as tongue-in-cheek, if it didn't seem so evidently true. At any rate, to escape the logic of it requires theists to commit to abandoning several of their cherished assumptions about God or Heaven. And no matter what, it presents a successful rebuttal to any form of Pascal's Wager, by demonstrating that unbelief might still be the safest bet after all (since we do not know whose assumptions are correct, and we therefore cannot exclude the assumptions on which this argument is based).
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The only way to truly test human beings is to see if we will become nontheists after serious and sincere inquiry into these matters: to see if we have the courage and fortitude to choose morality over faith or loyalty, and be good without fear or hope of divine reward. No other test will ensure a result of the genuinely good being self-selected into a predictable belief-state that can be observed in secret by god.
Conclusion
Since this easily and comprehensively explains all the unexplainable problems of god (like divine hiddenness and apparent evil), while other theologies do not (or at least nowhere so well), it follows that this analysis is probably a better explanation of all the available evidence than any contrary theology. Since this conclusion contradicts the conclusion of every form of Pascal's Wager, it follows that Pascal's Wager cannot assure anyone of God's existence or that belief in God will be the best bet.
Argument 3 is one I've considered quite a bit, so that struck a chord with me. Especially the part about Job and about God engaging in a battle with Satan. I don't see why God would need to do this, if he were truly all-powerful. Or want to, if he had any compassion at all. I mean yikes. Maybe he wanted to "prove" it to Satan, not to himself...but again...why? Why would he care about proving anything to Satan? Why would Satan "need" this kick in the rear, if Satan is damned anyway? I mean how could God possibly care? And I won't go into the acts against Job and his family over all this. So I'll leave that one entirely aside. Just the thought of this story makes me want to burst into tears...I hate this one.
Anyway...Argument 1 is also something I've always wondered about, but it's impossible to even ask this question without seeming evil and even I have my limits of how much I really want to push...so I haven't brought it up. But now that you've taken the heat for me... Anyway, if we just "automatically" "believed" in this particular God due basically to being in a culture that is predominantly Christian, and being inundated with that Christianity in every possible way, including school projects and celebrations, TV, books, etc., etc...then wouldn't we have automatically believed we should worship Satan for example, if our culture instead happened to be primarily Satanic? I hope that makes sense. "Believing" the most popular thing doesn't make it right.
If I were God I wouldn't want in my heaven a bunch of people who all managed to "believe" because that's what had been around them in every part of life from the time they were born. How is that "believing"? It's my personal feeling that when people say they're all filled with the holy spirit or that they "know" it's "right" or that sort of thing, it's because talk and actions regarding Christianity have been with them literally from the cradle. So of course it "feels" "right". It goes waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay deep into most of our culture's people's minds and deepest, first emotions. I'll bet many Muslims feel the same way about their religion, that it "feels right", and Jews, etc.
If I were God I wouldn't want in my heaven a bunch of people who all managed to "believe" because that's what had been around them in every part of life from the time they were born. How is that "believing"? It's my personal feeling that when people say they're all filled with the holy spirit or that they "know" it's "right" or that sort of thing, it's because talk and actions regarding Christianity have been with them literally from the cradle. So of course it "feels" "right". It goes waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay deep into most of our culture's people's minds and deepest, first emotions. I'll bet many Muslims feel the same way about their religion, that it "feels right", and Jews, etc.
Yes, you've touched on the crux of the argument.
As an analogy, if I owned a company and was looking for someone to run it, I would deliberately present a faulty business plan as a test to prospective managers. The suck-ups and yes-men would applaud me and praise my plan. They would be using worship as a method to gain employment. This would be dishonest. I would have no interest in them. Those who expressed doubt about my plan would be sincere and courageous. This would be honest. I would hire them.
the part about Job ....I don't see why God would need to do this.....Maybe he wanted to "prove" it to Satan, not to himself...but again...why? Why would he care about proving anything to Satan? Why would Satan "need" this kick in the rear, if Satan is damned anyway?
Maybe, just maybe, He wanted to teach us something. And if God can use me and my life to teach something that will be talked about and help people who are struggling thousands of years after it happened, He's welcome to. I won't enjoy it. I'm not asking for it per se, but God is free to do to me what He sees fit, and Job felt the same way.
Also, if there were no God, could there even BE evil? Wouldn't we call is something else besides evil, like 'counter thinking' or something like that?
I wish CD would allow someone to copy/paste articles. That one really needs dissecting.
I'm not sure this guy has even read the Bible.
Abraham DID NOT kill Issac. He was simply willing to.
And this statement, "Likewise, God deliberately inflicts unconscionable wrongs upon Job and his family merely to win a debate with Satan." Is completely false. God didn't do anything to Job, except restore him about 7 times over by the end of the book.
As stated in my previous post, God loved me enough to teach me through Job's life. And I'm sure Job is OK with it, have you guys read the Book of Job? I bet I could get you to read it if I said it was "The Lost Book of Job".
I wish CD would allow someone to copy/paste articles. That one really needs dissecting.
I'm not sure this guy has even read the Bible.
Abraham DID NOT kill Issac. He was simply willing to.
And this statement, "Likewise, God deliberately inflicts unconscionable wrongs upon Job and his family merely to win a debate with Satan." Is completely false. God didn't do anything to Job, except restore him about 7 times over by the end of the book.
As stated in my previous post, God loved me enough to teach me through Job's life. And I'm sure Job is OK with it, have you guys read the Book of Job? I bet I could get you to read it if I said it was "The Lost Book of Job".
Simply amazing.....
Yes, God has used Job to teach me too. And God brought satan's attention to Job. Adversity destroys superficial faith, but strengthens real faith by causing believers to draw closer to God in order to withstand the storms. When the roots of your faith are down deep in God you can withstand any storm that you go through.
Yes, God has used Job to teach me too. And God brought satan's attention to Job. Adversity destroys superficial faith, but strengthens real faith by causing believers to draw closer to God in order to withstand the storms. When the roots of your faith are down deep in God you can withstand any storm that you go through.
I totally agree with this. I know I was in one of the hardest times of my life a few years back, and The Book of Job gave me strength to endure my time of trial. Whenever we face lifes challanges, it is comforting to know there are others that have gone through things as bad or worse than we. We seek out these people and learn from them how they survived. Job endured more than many of us today could take, and he did it with friends and family telling him to blame God. He held fast to his faith, endured and grew stronger in his faith from these persecutions.
Say I have a problem and need answers. I go to my parents, who have lived life more than I and are more wise and mature than I am. I seek out the people who I trust to have gone through hard times and who have answers that I trust.
This is what Job is for many people. It is wise councel where people who are seeking answers can go knowing they can trust what they find.
Also, if there were no God, could there even BE evil?
That's a scary thought. That if there weren't a God there wouldn't be evil.
But anyway, A...bottom line: Am I to understand that you do think Pascal's Wager is legitimate? That people should "fake it 'til they make it", just in case? What are your viewpoints on this?
One other thing, Alpha...reading that sentence about "...if there were no God" again. I do not believe this article (which was indeed incorrect on Job, but did not say Abraham *did* kill Isaac...it didn't take the story to its end) necessarily states that there is no God, period. Once again...I should put this up as a signature line... Not being Christian does not mean one has to be atheist. There are other religions on the world besides Christianity.
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This article was focused on the God of the Bible. Pascal's Wager is focused on the God of the Bible. I don't know any non-Christian religious people who suggest a Pascal's Wager-like scenario to "sinners". Not believing that God is as he is shown in the Bible, does not mean one does not believe in God. I can't speak for this author, who could easily be an atheist. But I feel the need to make that clear...and to keep making it clear.
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Anyway, if we just "automatically" "believed" in this particular God due basically to being in a culture that is predominantly Christian, and being inundated with that Christianity in every possible way, including school projects and celebrations, TV, books, etc., etc...then wouldn't we have automatically believed we should worship Satan for example, if our culture instead happened to be primarily Satanic? I hope that makes sense. "Believing" the most popular thing doesn't make it right. 
That if there weren't a God there wouldn't be evil.
