Pascal's Wager: Struggling with my religion (atheism, bible, quotes, Biblical)

[BigCityDreamer]

Originally Posted by tigers84

Does it thrill you to "know" that our lives have no purpose or meaning? That once its over its over, for eternity? That there is no karma, so to speak, so mass murdering baby killers share the same ultimate fate as Mother Theresa? That with every celebration of a new born that is just one more soulless bundle of nerve endings and chemicals that will eventually die a meaningless death like everyone that has gone before? Does it give you solace and comfort, knowing that we are really no different than a scuttling crab or roach, just with a bigger brain? Does you find comfort in that hedonism shouild be everyone's lifetime philopsophy, as there is no chance of anything thereafter? Do you revel in the utter emptiness of a godless existence, knowing that only the horror of nothingness awaits?

When humans do prove, with absolute certainty, that there is no god, do you think the world will rejoice and be better off? I dont think it will.

You raise a lot of issues. First, it doesn't matter that the universe has no purpose or meaning. Why? Because we can create our own purposes and meanings in life. This to me is one of the fascinating paradoxes of our existence.

Does it thrill me to know this? As a matter of fact, yes it does. I am no longer bound psychologically by some imaginary cosmic purpose that was invented by humans at a time when knowledge was very primitive compared to what it is today. Knowing this is very liberating to me.

I believe in justice is this life. We have government and laws which punish crimes and wrongdoing. Our families, communities and society keep us in line and admonish as well. Because of conscience, virtue is its own reward and vice its own punishment. You cannot get away with wrongful behavior as easily as you think.

There is no horror that awaits when we die. We simply cease to exist. So, live life to the fullest while you're here and try to make the world a better place at least in a small way. Millions of species of life that is genetically related to you will go on long after you're gone. What's so horrible about that?

[tigers84]

Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer

You raise a lot of issues. First, it doesn't matter that the universe has no purpose or meaning. Why? Because we can create our own purposes and meanings in life. This to me is one of the fascinating paradoxes of our existence.

Does it thrill me to know this? As a matter of fact, yes it does. I am no longer required to limit my thinking to some imaginary cosmic purpose that was invented by humans at a time when knowledge was very primitive and we didn't know any better.

I believe in justice is this life. We have government and laws which punish crimes and wrongdoing. Our families, communities and society keep us in line and admonish as well. Because of conscience, virtue is its own reward and vice its own punishment. You cannot get away with immoral behavior as easily as you think.

Oh my idyllic friend...

People get away with immoral behavior ALL THE TIME. Did Stalin and Pol Pot receive their just desserts? Adolf got off pretty easy, too. Justice in this life, truly, is a rare thing. Does a a child rapist/killer ever receive true justice, even if the state does finally execute?

Most of us dont walk around pondering their life's godly "purpose". Mainly because there is no way to ever KNOW what it is. Just living our normal lives with higher ideals and being decent to others is a kind of purposeful living. The idea that God encourages and supports us in such endeavors makes it all the sweeter.

There are some pretty corrupt/nasty societies out there. Doing good is not part of their agenda.

Conscious, you say? From whence does this conscious come? No other animal has it. RIght and wrong is soley a human thing. The alligator/lion feels no regret as he munches down on the poor baby gazelle. Its just lunch.

You are quick to discount our predecessors as a bunch of ignorant gullible nitwits. I think you make that assessment too easily. People are, inherently, not that much different than they have ever been.

I admire your idealism. I do. But it doesnt go far enoug, IMO.

Humans are built different from all other species. We are unique on this planet, and possibly in the universe. Its not pride or ego. Its a fact, at least here on earth. That does count for something, I believe. An elephant will never drive a car or pen a poem. Humans are special, as a species. Notice I didnt say perfect. Not by a long shot. But there is something more to us that is hard to explain. If we are merely the result of lucky chance, why is every other species basically "stuck" at the same level, while we are well above? Its a question worth pondering.

[Mikelee81]

Originally Posted by L'Artiste

*I didn't intend for this be long*
I would put this in the Christian forum but I don't feel like getting tons of passages or people not trying to understand to my question or illogical responses.

so I'm I guess what you call a christian agnostic(i believe there is a god and its the god of the bible but I'm still unsure) I was raised on the belief in god, a baptist but went to catholic school, and i had great faith in god and jesus and resurrection etc etc.. until I met born again Christians who were some what of cult and ruined it,affected me psychology.. its been about 4-5 years since they initial recruited me and about 2 years since I left, and to this day I am still haunted by the things that happened with that church..
which has ruined my faith for good

so now i am holding on to my religion, but only because the fear of hell...which would send me to hell anyway i assume..i'm starting to question things that i have never questioned before i met them..with all the bible contradictions,how christianity/religion has fueled genocide and slavery as well as current events of hatemongering,the tons of christian sects,mass corruption with pedophilia and hypocrisy etc.Then I also realized another reason why I still follow this religion besides the fear of hell is because i was raised on it, had i been born in China I may be a buddhist, had i been born in india i may be a hindu, had i been born in middle east i'd be a muslim.

What am I asking is, what to do to actually want to follow God? And not because its being forced upon me with the threat of hell?

True Christianity is Spiritual not Religious. A relationship with your Maker and Redeemer who manifest himself to mankind to give his own life up voluntarily out of his Love for you. Jesus was the most anti Religious person ever to walk the face of the earth.

It is the Love not the Fear of God which provides the for living for God. God ultimately wants our love and fellowship. He hasn't forced us to Love him however. He's given us a choice to seek and love him.

If one trusts in Christ and is "born again" (you will know it) due to repentance of heart they have been Justified/Saved from Damnation. There is one condition for life, and that is coming to God through Christ. (John 14:6) Jesus Christ is the High Priest and mediator between God and Man as he is God who became a Man. This is why it is only through Jesus. His Spirit works through the believer enabling them to obey. With fellowship comes Joy.

If one is "in Christ" the Pastor should not instill fear in the pews of Damnation as they're Justification is in God's hands. The Pastor's job is to feed the flock the word of God, protect the congregation, and to strengthen their relationship with the Lord through encouragement. True Biblical Christianity leaves no room one believer putting themselves up over another or even an unbeliever as Grace was unmerited (Romans 4). With love we are to preach the "good news" of the gospel - Justification by Faith alone in God's works in Christ - Death, burial, resurrection proclaiming the truth.

So the motivation for seeking and obeying God is Love for what he's done for you, not fear of damnation as once one is "born again" they have been "sealed"/purchased.

People are drawn in to God by his Grace. We have to know the righteousness is there, but Grace is God's love letter to mankind written on a cross in Judea 2000 years ago.

We're all as the thief on the cross. 100 percent incapable of helping ourselves. All we have to do is ask being sincere turning to him. This is the model of God's grace. We can never earn it, and never deserve it. We can only receive his free gift.

His arm is held out for Salvation for any to grab. The "arm of the LORD" is a common idiom for the Messiah. It does look like time is getting short. At some point, the Ark's door closed and the waters started to rise.



Isaiah 53

1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by tigers84

Perhaps there is, perhaps there isnt. But either way it doesnt mean God does not exist.

Nor did I claim it does. The point is not that it shows there is no god. The point is that there seems to be no reasons to think there IS a god and this is just another one of the things people make up to try and invent reasons there is a god.

Originally Posted by tigers84

Life cannot spring from non-life. - or at least no scientist has ever proven it.

Funny... you have just a valid thought process (when you said that not being able to find a reason for life does not disprove a god) and then discarded that exact same valid thought process here simply because it suited you to do so. Just because one has not proven exactly how life arose, that does not mean you get to declare that life cannot spring from non-life. In fact several path ways from non life to life have been suggested.

Originally Posted by tigers84

Did it begin spontaneously/by itself? Doubtful.

Thankfully you having a "doubt" does not evidence that anything is or is not so. I heartily recommend you watch people actually in the know who have researched the subject and show that no god was required to start the universe. The latest book from Hawking also deals with that issue. All in all you just declaring things "unlikely" or "doubtful" is evidence for nothing but your own incredulity I am afraid.

Originally Posted by tigers84

There is Something rather than Nothing. Why?

The same link above will help you here. However I will also add "so what?". It is just your own human intuitions that declare there should be nothing and therefore the "something" needs to be explained. On what basis are you making that assumption? Why can not "something" be default and the onus on you to explain why you feel there should be "nothing"?

Even worse however is that you are attempting here to provide evidence for a god but all you are doing is asking questions. "Why is X like that" "Why does X work like this". Questions are good, and questions need to be answered. But questions... especially unanswered questions... are not evidence for something you just decided to make up.

In essence all you are doing is saying "Because we do not know how X works... we know how X works" which is clearly nonsense.

Originally Posted by tigers84

Fine tuning of the universe.

What fine tuning? People declare it has been fine tuned but never evidence the claim it actually was.

Originally Posted by tigers84

Entropy says ther natural order of thing is chaos, not order. Yet humans are very complex systems that formed from nature.

A common misinterpretation of entropy which you trot out here. In fact entropy simply says that over all in a CLOSED system the system will tend towards entropy. That is all.

However in a closed system... and even more so in an open system like earth... although the entire system tends towards entropy this does not mean there can not be partial and temporary movements towards order. Order can always arise, it just needs to tend towards entropy in the end.

For example if you memorize this sentence you have created order in the universe within your brain. However the calories you have burned and the associated release of energy and heat creates more entropy than the order you created in the memorization.

Summary: So essentially your "evidence" above was just a list of open questions... and open questions are not evidence for stuff you decide to make up.... followed by a misrepresentation/misunderstanding of a single "law" of physics. All in all not a strong case I think you see. Especially when the only support you can give all those things is to declare over and over it makes "sense" to you. As if making sense was synonymous in any way with being "true".

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by hiker45

It's not foolish if it makes you happier and causes no one any harm.

I mean foolish in the context of it being a truth claim. If you want to argue the emotional and psychological benefits of self delusion or the accepting of unfounded claims solely for the benefit of ones own happiness... then you are in a different conversation to the one I am having I am afraid.

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by tigers84

You seem fairly angry.

"Angry"...No, not at all.

Look, there are plenty of reasons not to believe in God. Obviously. I was once a non-believer myself. But there are also reasons to believe. Its really a personal choice.

Have I said otherwise?

Mocking or deriding those who do believe doesnt advance your argument.

Could you point out where I have mocked or derided?

There are other planets in our SS. No signs of life on any of them.

How do you know that the Moon is not swarming with invisible life that cannot be detected with out technology?

....and how many planets in our SS have we been to for you to make such a statement?

I agree, God is not a foregone conclusion.

Excellent!

Who said anything about snakes and floods? Not me.

OK...so you're not a Bible believer...that's fine.

All that exists, seen and unseen, does not have to be. There could just as easily be nothing, in the most absolute sense. But instead there is a huge universe, full of consistent physical laws and at least some living creatures.

So...what is your point?

While humanity might not have the details exactly right, without a higher being the world doesnt have to be nearly as "friendly" to us at it is.

...but the world isn't friendly. I challenge you to go to the desert or the jungle or ANYWHERE without food, clothing, shelter or resource. See how long you survive on this "friendly" planet

The fact that globes circles their suns with regularity all around the universe is kind of an amazing thing in itself.

Why?

Why do planets even have to form? They dont

. ...but they do. Perhaps you don't understand how or why they form and that's the reason you are so awestruck by it all.

If they didnt life would be virtually impossible, here or elsewhere.

Says you.

The fact that our planet has engaged in a life giving/preserving rotation around a gasesous globe millions of miles away, and has done so for at least thousands of years, is truly amazing, and suggests there is more to our existence than just happenstance.

It suggests that life has been able to survive in the conditions found on this planet. That's all! Do I have to remind you about the hole and the puddle?.

[Mattie Jo]

Originally Posted by L'Artiste

*I didn't intend for this be long*
I would put this in the Christian forum but I don't feel like getting tons of passages or people not trying to understand to my question or illogical responses.

so I'm I guess what you call a christian agnostic(i believe there is a god and its the god of the bible but I'm still unsure) I was raised on the belief in god, a baptist but went to catholic school, and i had great faith in god and jesus and resurrection etc etc.. until I met born again Christians who were some what of cult and ruined it,affected me psychology.. its been about 4-5 years since they initial recruited me and about 2 years since I left, and to this day I am still haunted by the things that happened with that church..
which has ruined my faith for good

so now i am holding on to my religion, but only because the fear of hell...which would send me to hell anyway i assume..i'm starting to question things that i have never questioned before i met them..with all the bible contradictions,how christianity/religion has fueled genocide and slavery as well as current events of hatemongering,the tons of christian sects,mass corruption with pedophilia and hypocrisy etc.Then I also realized another reason why I still follow this religion besides the fear of hell is because i was raised on it, had i been born in China I may be a buddhist, had i been born in india i may be a hindu, had i been born in middle east i'd be a muslim.

What am I asking is, what to do to actually want to follow God? And not because its being forced upon me with the threat of hell?

Religion is not the blame for hatemongering, etc. or all you listed. People are. Without religion, in spite of what you have been told, all of these things would still exist, but it would not exist in the name of God.

I, too, was in a cult that left me not believing in God anymore, but this cult did not believe in hell. I still don't believe in hell, but I do believe in God!!! It took me years to believe again.

I would suggest NOT reading anti-religious books and since you used to go to the Catholic Church give it a try again, talk with a priest. I say this because this is what I am now doing.

[tigers84]

Originally Posted by Rafius

"Angry"...No, not at all.
Have I said otherwise?

Could you point out where I have mocked or derided?

How do you know that the Moon is not swarming with invisible life that cannot be detected with out technology?

....and how many planets in our SS have we been to for you to make such a statement?

Excellent!

OK...so you're not a Bible believer...that's fine.

So...what is your point?

...but the world isn't friendly. I challenge you to go to the desert or the jungle or ANYWHERE without food, clothing, shelter or resource. See how long you survive on this "friendly" planet

Why?

. ...but they do. Perhaps you don't understand how or why they form and that's the reason you are so awestruck by it all.

Says you.

It suggests that life has been able to survive in the conditions found on this planet. That's all! Do I have to remind you about the hole and the puddle?.

Moderator cut: edit

I understand that gravity and other "natural" forces create planets! But who what created the law of gravity?m!!! Why must the laws of nature enable the creation of planets? You think intelligent life can form in places other than highly stable environments? On a comet? In a black hole? Etc. If you do, then anything and everyhing is possible, and the discussion is endless.

The moon teeming with microscopic life? Ok. Are they self aware? Do they write poetry? Do they create art? Well, from your vantage, I guess because I can't prove otherwise, perhaps it's true.

The world is friendly enough so that intelligent life lives here, and few other places in the universe! Unless you KNOW different.

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by tigers84

I understand that gravity and other "natural" forces create planets! But who what created the law of gravity?m!!!

Ever thought that gravity might always have existed?? Your problem is that you are looking at everything and anything that exists and then claiming, without any evidence whatsoever, that there just HAD to have been a time when it didn't exist - thereby creating the necessity for a 'creator'. I ask you again, do you have any evidence for a time when there was 'nothing'?

The moon teeming with microscopic life?

I didn't say anything about "microscopic". It may be giant elephant-like creatures with nine heads for all we know. The point is that you cannot say that there is no life anywhere else because any life that might exist could be undetectable.

Ok. Are they self aware? Do they write poetry? Do they create art?

Ah right!!! You started off claiming that "life" does not exist anywhere else and the when I point out to you that it may well exist elsewhere, you move the goalposts and demand 'intelligent' life!!

The world is friendly enough so that intelligent life lives here, and few other places in the universe!

Then accept my challenge and go out into your friendly world without food, water, clothing or shelter. I guarantee that your 'friendly world' will have killed you in no time.

Unless you KNOW different.

Of course I don't know different but unlike you, I don't dismiss the possibility.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by tigers84

Why must the laws of nature enable the creation of planets?

Whoever claimed that they "must"? You are being duped by a form of retrospective bias. Because we exist you feel that it "must" be that way and therefore that "must" requires explanation.

The universe does not owe us explanations.

Imagine a puddle becoming conscious in a hole. The puddle, like yourself, would think "This hole is EXACTLY the right size and shape to fit me. How can this be?? Someone must have designed it to fit me".

The error there is the puddle does not realise that any hole would have been sufficient. The puddle did not have to be the size and shape it turned out to be.

The same is true of life. We have a bias that makes us think "We are this way, therefore the universe must have been designed to make us this way". Like the puddle many people do not stop to think that perhaps the universe could have been many ways and life could have evolved just as well... although differently.... in any one of them.

This retrospective bias is powerful and I can understand why people like yourself are duped by it. But a powerful illusion is still an illusion none the less.