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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
With all do respect, this response does nothing to address my point that in any legitimate society laws (imposition) are necessitated. Some form of morality will be imposed. With respect to God and objective moral values, this imposed morality *MUST* either include or exclude God. There is no third choice. This is simple straight-forward logic.
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No, it's really not straight-forward logic, at all. The reason it isn't is because we're talking about morality, specifically. *IF* one of the two options you're proposing don't necessarily share a common morality, such as the "atheistic world view" group, than you cannot claim an imposition of that moral code, because it doesn't exist.
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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
Well it most certainly wouldn't be an imposition of the God view. Logically, it HAS to be an imposition of one or the other. If the God I believe in actually exists, and this God prohibits murder of the unborn, then we have a very obvious imposition of atheism.
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No, we do not. Are you certain there are no other theists in this entire world who don't view abortion as immoral? If a theist has the moral position that abortion is OK, then it cannot be an atheistic world view. I'm pretty certain we've covered this before in some of our earlier exchanges.
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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
If the state gave authorization for you to be murdered, would that be an imposition on you IYO?
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Not after I was dead, it wouldn't be.
Why are you asking ridiculous questions?
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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
Great. Why would you *feel* this way?
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A miscarriage of justice? Absolutely. An imposition of religion? Not necessarily. I'm certain there are some non-religious folks out there that think gay marriage is "icky" and would vote against it simply for that reason.
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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
Would you agree that the vast majority of theists in this country subscribe to the Ten Commandments?
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In this country? I would assume so.
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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
Which commandments do the majority of atheists subscribe to?
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I have no idea. 7 out of 10? 5 out of 10? Again, you're trying to assign common morality to the group and it simply doesn't exist. I don't have to hold to any specific moral code to not have belief in gods. It's not a requirement. I, personally, think 4-10 are all pretty good rules to live by. #4 is on the fence, since it lables a day as "holy", which I obviously disagree with. I included it because I
do like my weekends!
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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
If they (atheists) support law that is also in keeping with the Ten Commandments they would simply be agreeing with the theistic view of morality.
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Nope. It is common ground, to be sure, but to label it as the "theistic" morality would be to assume that this morality was the sole proprety of theists, or at the very least that it originated with theists, and I see no evidence of that.
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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
In other words, they would favor imposing a view that agrees with theism. They would be working with theists in order to implement theism. What do you find to be so complicated about all this?
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Common ground is not the imposition of theism. What do you find so complicated about it?
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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
Do you view it as atheistic imposition? Let me guess.... your answer would be 'no.' Dred Scott was then a "secular" law?
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Correct. I believe the Dredd Scott decision was based on ignorant racism and horribly misplaced values of what a human being is worth. I do not see it as being based on any specific religion, however.
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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
Does God support the practice of slavery?
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The God of the OT certainly seemed to, yep.
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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
Happy to explain. Ultimate justice would be administered by an ultimate judge. A judge who is in a perfect position to make perfect decisions based on perfect judgments. In my world, nobody ever gets away with anything. ULTIMATELY everyone will face ULTIMATE justice.
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Do you have any evidence that this ultimate justice exists? I can easily prove that our version of justice, as is detailed by our contry's criminal code, exists.
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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
God's law and moral precepts are ULTIMATELY just and righteous. They are objective and fixed.
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This presupposes the existence of at least one god. I see no evidence of that. So, we'll agree to disagree.
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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
Again, if the electorate ever chooses to walk away from these objectively fixed morals, it will be the end the Constitution and our representative republic.
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How do you know this would be an end to our Constitution and representative republic? Is it not possible for the Constitution to be changed? I see no mutual exclusion as you have stated above.
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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
Sure, as soon as you provide "evidence" that "there is no such thing."
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And we're right back to the heart of our differences, aren't we? You assume that gods exist and so you believe in objective morals that he/she/it/they have handed down. I see no evidence for gods, so I believe these "objective" morals are just a widely agreed upon set of rules that foster a peacable society. We can see lots of examples of differing moral codes just within out country, let alone throughout the world. If there are differing moral codes - how can there possibly be an objective morality?
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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
Here's what I'll do, when we've exhausted this particular discussion we'll go to another thread and hash this out. I would be looking to back up my assertion that it's REASONABLE to believe in the existence of God and moral absolutes. Conversely, I would be looking for you to provide REASONABLE alternatives. Deal?
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Knock yourself out. I've already provided a reasonable alternative above. My answer won't change just because you've started a new thread, I promise you.
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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
We appear to be going circular because you seem to think that in order for the atheist view to be imposed, all the atheists would need to come together under some sort of official banner/title...basically, to form a "church" of atheism, if you will. While I would agree that this would certainly be one way to impose atheism, we cannot logically deduce it as the only way.
You no doubt disagree, please elaborate...
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Nope, I don't think that at all. It would simply require a shared morality in order to be considered "atheist" and that simply DOES NOT EXIST. I'm done with this line of discussion.
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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
I'll see your <SIGH> and raise you a <SIGH>. I don't disagree with any of this. I'm merely pointing out that your opinion is duly noted.
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Great.
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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
<SIGH> You were the one who asked for my examples. Again, I'm happy to have the discussion. If it relates to the OP, we can discuss it here, if not, we can discuss it elsewhere. Your call.
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At this point, I really don't care. I sick of discussing whether or not something YOU brought into the conversation as an example is relevant to the discussion.
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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
As a child in this classroom it would. As a parent of a child in this class where the teacher espouses a moral view that runs counter to what I'm teaching, it then equates to a direct imposition.
To what degree? Debatable.
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No, it's not an imposition. At all. The lack of discussion/teaching of creation theory in public schools does not, in any way, impede you from teaching your child about creation and God and the Tooth Fairy, should you be so inclined. It is not impostion of atheism, period.
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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
Really? Please lead on. Explain how it would be possible to have objective morality (which you've already opined doesn't exist) in the absence of a Transcendent Law giver (God).
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Correct, I don't believe in objective morality. However, it sounds like what you are suggesting in this quoted text is that *IF* gods exist then he/she/it/they *MUST* have handed down a moral code for us to live by. First you would need to prove gods exist, THEN you would need to prove a moral code was handed down from this creative intelligence. Two very separate and not mutually inclusive things. No?
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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
It is in fact imposition. You may choose to view the degree of imposition as inconsequential, but it's still imposition. My view of how society should be is the view that would equate abortion to murder. The current imposed view runs counter to my view which is in agreement with the God view. I seek to impose theism, others seek to impose atheism. That's how our system of government works.
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Atheists CAN believe that abortion is murder, too. Therefore the existence of legal abortion CANNOT be assigned an atheistic bent.
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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
I've explained in reasonable and logical fashion why it does equate to imposition.
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Yes, you have and I agree. It IS imposition. It just doesn't equate to the imposition of atheism.
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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
I have yet to hear your logical reason as to why they should not be considered as imposition.
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I've given very clear and understandable reasons that I don't believe this to be an imposition of *ATHEISM*.
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Originally Posted by tigetmax24
You've made no attempt to define what it is you see as that which would actually constitute a compromise of my morals or beliefs.
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Yes, I actually have. Multiple times. IF you were forced to perform or have an abortion performed on you/your wife, that would be imposition forcing you to compromise your morals and beliefs. It is still not imposition of atheism, however.
I've laid my opinions out several times on most of these topics. I'm tired of repeating myself and we appear to be simply talking past each other, now. In the future I will only respond to new lines of discussion.
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