What is the difference between flirty and sleazy? (dating, wife, movies)
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I was talking with my friend and he said it was just how attractive the guy was. I don't think that is actually the case, but I was having a hard time articulating exactly what the difference is just the same.
Eh. For me, creepy is creepy as is unwanted attention regardless of the attractiveness of the person in question. I remember having conventionally "hot" guys hitting on me when I was in my twenties and having some of them set off my internal creep detector. Sometimes, there's a sense of entitlement that broadcasts loud and clear with such men, which I find to be very off-putting.
Flirting has a lightness to it. In my experience, guys who are good at it come across as doing it with no expectations whether or not they have any intentions behind their playful banter.
Last edited by Formerly Known As Twenty; 02-17-2023 at 06:45 AM..
Right, flirting is playful, light, nonthreatening. Sleazy is predatory and pushy, and makes you feel unsafe. Attraction is definitely a factor, but conventionally hot guys can absolutely be sleazy and creepy.
My female friends always say it is just a feeling; women's intuition. They always say "trust your gut" when it comes to men approaching. I tend to agree with them. Maybe the result of eons of evolution and what remains of human (female) animal instinct. They will also say it is predominantly based on how they look. Came up in discussion when they started talking about me; apparently I have the opposite effect on women. They all say I am easily approachable and non-threatening. Look-wise, I am on the smaller stature side for a male and have been told I look like a professional (ie computer guy) in the tech field (which I am). So I think that has a lot to do with it. I tend to be quiet too, rarely flirt, but when I open up pretty talkative; I make them laugh.
Honestly tho.... none of that really helped my dating prospects.
It's transgression against a person's boundaries, plain and simple.
Thing is, one may not know that there was a boundary because many of them are unspoken, which is why when flirting, it's best to wait for signs that your behavior is welcome before you proceed into any overt territory, unless you are really willing to not care if you get rebuffed.
And as social behaviors go, it's got a lot in common with humor. Some jokes are considered to be in bad taste by some audiences but will get laughs with others...depends on where certain boundaries are drawn with the audience in question. Some joke-tellers (comedians for instance) can pull off pushing boundaries, and a lot of the time with the most successful and famous ones, it works in their favor but that's because their audience is self-selecting.
The audience at a Hannah Gadsby show may not be the one that would laugh at Jeff Foxworthy jokes.
I mean if a man wants to try and understand creepy or sleazy...try and think of what would make YOU uncomfortable coming from a strangers, or feel boundary pushing to you? Like imagine feeling like someone is coming on way too strong and you aren't even sure if you are into them. If you can't do this in a sexual context without setting aside the question of looks (because many women are not deciding if they will have sex with you JUST based on your looks, I don't care what you think)...think of it as shopping for something and you are trying to make decisions without being pressured but some salesperson is following you around trying to push a purchase. It's someone acting with an agenda when you don't even know if you're interested, or worse, if you know that you are NOT and you've actually told them so.
The more a woman has explicitly communicated a boundary and a man is clearly choosing to disregard it, the worse it is.
The only reason this seems uncertain and confusing, I think, to guys, is the great grey area of unspoken boundaries, where a woman has a boundary but has not told you about it and doesn't even feel like putting the energy into explaining it to you. Some of those are, "I think you should have known better, this is basic manners and common sense"....a 60 year old explicitly flirting with teenagers is violating boundaries that everyone should already know. A filthy, disheveled, intoxicated scrub who smells bad should not be stumbling into the lobby of an expensive executive hotel to fling himself bodily at women in spotless pants-suits. Coming on uncomfortably strong way too soon, or in situations like where a woman is in customer service and can't actually get away from you and is paid to smile and treat you nicely...those might be a little less "everyone knows"...but most of us wish that everyone did.
Where "attractiveness" comes into play, I guess? Are there people who see THEMSELVES as hot stuff to the point where they believe that only attractive and/or high status others should even speak to them as equals? Uh, yeah. It doesn't make them objectively correct in their ranking of humanity, it makes them snobs. Some people are just...like that...but it should not be read into some sort of Universal Theory of Mating Behavior.
But I've always said that one of the first prerequisite lessons to learn when trying to date is learning how to take any sort of a "no" with grace. Not everybody is into any one of us, even the attractive people are unattractive to some. Everyone will get turned down sometimes if they are actively making offers. Failing to take a no with grace, is always boundary pushing behavior, and as such is generally not appreciated by most people. There are some few out there who actually get some kind of a thrill out of having their boundaries pushed at, but they are a minority and they are vastly outnumbered by the number of people who get a thrill out of the idea of pushing someone else's boundaries, I think. And I suspect that most people would question the mental health and emotional intelligence of anyone who sees actual boundary violation as just part of the game.
I can see though, again, how it could be hard to perceive...it may be part of a testing process of social skills writ large. Because part of the traditional dance of coy flirtation (which may not be in quite the fashion it once was) from women, is covertly signaling that a boundary is being set aside, that the door that you initially saw as closed is in fact open just a crack with an interested eye gazing out at you. Metaphorically speaking.
The process of questioning ?boundary? and response, !Whoa there, boundary! or ~maybe not~ or ~well hello...no boundary...door is open, but let's see if it stays that way after we've talked a bit...~ That's what flirtation is meant to be. That's why it is a step in the process of courtship, and we don't just have people walking up and grabbing one another.
Sleazy is inappropriate touching, staring down, standing too close, dirty remarks, pushy.
Flirty is respectful, playful, happy, non threatening, smiling, different tone in voice, smiling eyes - not staring you down and mindf..cking you.
Not attractive but clean men can be flirty easily.
If you are unattractive and additionally sloppy looking with stains/holes in your clothes and unwashed, uncombed hair, smelly, etc. you will have a hard time being flirty, it will probably more likely come off as creepy. Not sleazy, creepy.
I had a job where I had my own office, working as the HR assistant and there was this good looking manager that I liked. But then he acted really creepy and sleazy. He kept coming into my office, closing the door (my office was very small) and stood right in front of me, staring me down. I could not back up, there was no room. Telling me that I did him a big favor by doing xyz and he will invite me to tequila later. I said "no worries, I just did my job" and he kept insisting to go out with me and I changed the topic. Don't remember what I said but he said he would like to go to Germany with me, experience the culture and meet my family. Huh? I told him to please get back to work and maybe inform his wife before he asks another woman to go on a vacation together. He did stuff like that a few times and I told my boss. Who ... did nothing.
Later on I checked his file. There were several incidents where girls reported him for being inappropriate.
Sleazy is inappropriate touching, staring down, standing too close, dirty remarks, pushy.
Flirty is respectful, playful, happy, non threatening, smiling, different tone in voice, smiling eyes - not staring you down and mindf..cking you.
Not attractive but clean men can be flirty easily.
If you are unattractive and additionally sloppy looking with stains/holes in your clothes and unwashed, uncombed hair, smelly, etc. you will have a hard time being flirty, it will probably more likely come off as creepy. Not sleazy, creepy.
I had a job where I had my own office, working as the HR assistant and there was this good looking manager that I liked. But then he acted really creepy and sleazy. He kept coming into my office, closing the door (my office was very small) and stood right in front of me, staring me down. I could not back up, there was no room. Telling me that I did him a big favor by doing xyz and he will invite me to tequila later. I said "no worries, I just did my job" and he kept insisting to go out with me and I changed the topic. Don't remember what I said but he said he would like to go to Germany with me, experience the culture and meet my family. Huh? I told him to please get back to work and maybe inform his wife before he asks another woman to go on a vacation together. He did stuff like that a few times and I told my boss. Who ... did nothing.
Later on I checked his file. There were several incidents where girls reported him for being inappropriate.
All boundary pushing!
I've seen a lot of movies where they portrayed that more aggressive approach as being hot...and the only thing that changes it from bad to ok, is when the woman signals that she's into it, that she is consenting and is letting him know that a boundary is taken down. Like Indiana Jones with Marian, he is very pushy at first but we know they have a history. Still his flirtation when she is not into him makes us think he's a jerk. But then when she lets him know that his attention is wanted, then his more assertive behavior is less jerky and more sexy. (I remember reading somewhere this is like every Harrison Ford movie from the 80s, maybe so...but it was a pretty common film trope I grew up with.)
I feel that this is part of what men struggle with. They are watching portrayals and examples of this, and they're watching the behavior of "successful men" or such men are telling them how to act and the problem is, they are so busy watching other men to try and learn, that they are missing the CRUCIAL part where the woman signaled the green light to his attention. And that is the one factor that makes all the difference in the world.
But since our regular Joe tried the exact behavior on some random woman unit in the wild and "it didn't work" instead of thinking about HER and what was different with HER behavior, he instead thinks about what is the difference between himself and studly "Chad" or whatever who modeled the behavior with success and he comes up with "I'm not good looking enough."
Which...kinda circles around to the fact that women actually like to be seen as people and if Joe can't figure that out, he's gonna have a hard time. As a woman, I look at this and wonder why these dudes don't just go play some sports ball because whatever they are doing looks a lot more like a game that they're playing with other men, against other men, for the approval of other men. You could exchange women for a ball and it would be fine, and maybe they should lol!
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