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1) Have conversations with them and get to know them first, instead of just trying to ask them out from the start.
2) Avoid saying anything sexual, explicit or innuendo. Especially if you don't know super well.
3) It's better to compliment something that the person has control over (i.e. their fashion, accessories, hairstyle, their personality, things they've said etc.) rather than their body or physical features.
4) If they say no or are uninterested, accept that and move on. Don't try to persuade them to change their mind. (Be mindful of signs of disinterest: i.e. they're not very responsive or invested in the conversation, 1-2 word answers, they don't ask you questions, etc.). Make sure that they have the space and freedom to leave the conversation if they're uninterested.
The major element of flirtation is humor, smiling, laughing, lighthearted banter. Flirting is often ironic in that what's being said is not the unspoken dialogue: attraction between the two parties. Nothing is stated outright, body language and facial expression state the unspoken. Almost like a secret language between two people. And that seemingly innocent but actually intimate connection is deeply satisfying.
"Sleazy" has no element of humor, it's predatory, serious, obvious in an offensive way, slightly scary. Off-putting. People who use this approach have something wrong with them as almost no one with healthy self-respect would respond in a positive way.
I was talking with my friend and he said it was just how attractive the guy was. I don't think that is actually the case, but I was having a hard time articulating exactly what the difference is just the same.
First, I am sure it isn't easy to ask a girl out. I agree the difference between flirty behavior and sleazy behavior is boundary pushing, but the problem is that boundaries can be ambigious because different people have different boundaries.
A lot of flirting is actually about matching energy levels. Flirty behavior should be fun, its a type of dance and initally I think it works best when I sense a certain playfulness and a desire to have fun. But you need to roughly match my energy levels too. The big area where I think flirty behavior often verges into sleazy behavior is when guys come on too strong too quickly. But the better I know, you and the more comfortable I feel around you, often from successfully flirting with me, the more your flirtation overton window with me expands.
I think the reason flirting often starts with jokes is that jokes are deniable. I think why flirting often may involve some innuendo is that the process of bantering around is a way to playfully figure out where the boundaries currently are between us. If I am laughing with you, and even playfully throwing in some innuendo of my own, we are expanding the flirtation overton window between us. But if I am not responding in kind to your innuendo and not playing a long as much, we can go back to just joking around and we continue to be friends. No ego loss involved.
I've seen a lot of movies where they portrayed that more aggressive approach as being hot...and the only thing that changes it from bad to ok, is when the woman signals that she's into it, that she is consenting and is letting him know that a boundary is taken down. !
It is also a cultural thing. I have recently watched some international movies on Netflix and Amazon and there were some Eastern European movies where guys stared women down and the women were attracted to that/them and they started talking. I thought if a guy would follow me and stare me down and creep up on me and lurk behind corners, I would file for a restraining order.
Also, not sure if this is still the case but when I was a teenager and went to Italy, guys there were staring at me or whistling. When we went to Turkey it was even worse, guys tried touching me and did not even hide it. Super sleazy and unacceptable here in the US.
Also, not sure if this is still the case but when I was a teenager and went to Italy, guys there were staring at me or whistling. When we went to Turkey it was even worse, guys tried touching me and did not even hide it. Super sleazy and unacceptable here in the US.
That's interesting.
When my girlfriends and I were going around Europe mid-70s we planned to go to Milan and Rome/Vatican.
People we met, all over Europe, young, old, male, female when we said we were going to Italy cautioned us not to.
They all said that three single mid-twenties blond females would receive so much unwanted attention from men in Italy it would ruin the trip for us.
At first we were skeptical but we heard it so often and so adamant we gave in and didn't go.
I don't know what would have happened but I've always regretted not seeing Italy.
And Italian men couldn't have been more forward than young French men were. And we were handling them okay.
And it was a great way to meet people, we made friends every where we went. Fun times.
It is also a cultural thing. I have recently watched some international movies on Netflix and Amazon and there were some Eastern European movies where guys stared women down and the women were attracted to that/them and they started talking. I thought if a guy would follow me and stare me down and creep up on me and lurk behind corners, I would file for a restraining order.
Also, not sure if this is still the case but when I was a teenager and went to Italy, guys there were staring at me or whistling. When we went to Turkey it was even worse, guys tried touching me and did not even hide it. Super sleazy and unacceptable here in the US.
Very good point.
I have been reading a book written by a female Iranian immigrant to the US, who remarked on cultural differences and how when dating here, passion is generally slow to build in ways that may seem foreign to some cultures. This is something that I didn't really know, but in very traditional and restrictive cultures, those with modesty laws and such, once those barriers are taken down and a couple actually has the OK to begin a relationship, they often will go all-in very passionately, very fast. She believed that a lot of it had to do with many regions having a lot of experience of war and other hardship, where I guess people had more of a sense of urgency to create a family because you never know what may happen to you.
Like she was saying that you wouldn't tell someone you'd just started dating in the US that they are your breath and heart and sun and moon and so on; it would be over the top. But in some cultures, that'd be pretty normal to do.
And I also think (my opinion now) that in America there are many other areas of life where one is expected to seek fulfillment. Careers and hobbies and other pursuits. We have many options in terms of how to define ourselves. Actually that is another thing she talks about, she refers to America as "Selfistan"...a nation where an almost shocking amount of focus is on the self, and not just in terms of selfishness but like...self work, self improvement, care and maintenance of the self. With all of this going on, we are wanting a partner who is a compliment to the Self that we've invested in building. And that takes a bit of getting to know someone, to really have an idea if that is the case or not.
There was another mention of humor a few posts up, in flirting. I think that this is one that men probably need to be careful about. As I said before, humor, much like flirting, requires some social savvy. Done wrong, it can make a whole mess of things. Like there are guys who will throw a comment out there knowing that they are testing people, and if it goes positively as they seem to hope, they can keep going, but if it lands poorly they will claim that they were "just joking" (when you can tell that they really weren't.) That's a pretty awkward puddle to stand in, right there.
It is also a cultural thing. I have recently watched some international movies on Netflix and Amazon and there were some Eastern European movies where guys stared women down and the women were attracted to that/them and they started talking. I thought if a guy would follow me and stare me down and creep up on me and lurk behind corners, I would file for a restraining order.
Also, not sure if this is still the case but when I was a teenager and went to Italy, guys there were staring at me or whistling. When we went to Turkey it was even worse, guys tried touching me and did not even hide it. Super sleazy and unacceptable here in the US.
Yeah, certain parts of the world operate differently. Italy you mentioned, they openly eyeball rape women there, just a joke, not meaning it serious.
Same with parts of Latin America.
As others have mentioned, definitely a predator-ish vibe to it.
When my girlfriends and I were going around Europe mid-70s we planned to go to Milan and Rome/Vatican.
People we met, all over Europe, young, old, male, female when we said we were going to Italy cautioned us not to.
They all said that three single mid-twenties blond females would receive so much unwanted attention from men in Italy it would ruin the trip for us.
At first we were skeptical but we heard it so often and so adamant we gave in and didn't go.
I don't know what would have happened but I've always regretted not seeing Italy.
And Italian men couldn't have been more forward than young French men were. And we were handling them okay.
And it was a great way to meet people, we made friends every where we went. Fun times.
I went to Italy when I was 22 years old and then again just a few months ago (I was 40 at the time). I found that when I was 22 the men were definitely more aggressive and I got cat called A LOT! However when I went back recently it had changed, yea I had some guys flirt with me but not in the uncomfortable way they did when I was 22. Now maybe it was because I wasn't that hot young 22 year old anymore, (but I still look pretty darn good and get hit on plenty here in the US lol) or maybe it's because times have changed.
Probably to each their own on that. I've gotten turned off by some pretty hot guys the minute they started getting explicit or raunchy. My eyes might have liked them by my ears have veto power.
Context matters. Time and place matters. A playful effort to engage a woman that would be fine at a party is out of place at her father's funeral. That starts out sleazy and only descends into a deeper abyss if he doesn't gracefully back track from his error and persists.
And if the time and place is right but she's just not interested, again language that might seem appropriate enough on paper is boundary pushing when it follows a clear signal of disinterest.
What the OP, or the OP's friend may be speaking to regarding the attractiveness of the flirter may invole a man who lacks social acumen making clear errors when trying to flirt and thinking the woman's lack of interest is entirely about his appearance, when it may be more about how he tried to engage. And then under the category of "life is harsh sometimes" less attractive men, whether they're awkward or not much to look at or both (extra dose of harsh) will get less favorable responses than more attractive men, and that can lead to frustration. A man who is frustrated about his social life is a context unto himself and brings a sort of wrong time/wrong place vibe with him to the next woman he tries to flirt with. That's a tough cycle to break, but it won't break if he keeps blaming the messengers, women, telling him his efforts aren't welcome. In his frustration he's also not likely to be objective about where he's ****ing up.
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