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Nah, I've definitely had people who were objectively attractive say/do things that were sleazy or creepy when they thought they were flirting and it's still a turn off. It's like that "she's a 10, but..." meme. Someone can go from a 10 to a 2 really quickly by saying or doing something that throws up a red flag. (I generally hate that ranking system, but you get what I'm saying.)
By the same token, if someone who I'm not attracted to is behaving flirtatiously, that's not a transgression (how are they gonna know if they don't try? Or maybe they're just joking around), but I'll shut it down as inoffensively as possible so as not to lead them on. It's only if they persist after being discouraged that it becomes a problem.
This reminds me of something else... I have on occasion observed really old guys who are at restaurants alone. You get the sense that they are perhaps widowed, and this is where they go for a little social interaction. And I've seen them be definitely FLIRTY with young waitresses but you can tell for sure that they aren't actually trying to get any action, there's no agenda besides enjoying interacting with a pretty younger woman. And they are being respectful about it, they might make a quip of some sort that makes it clear that they find the woman pretty or some kind of "when I was your age" comment, but they aren't using vulgar or graphic language or leering or trying to touch. And they are not stinky or filthy or being inappropriate in any other ways, either.
And to me, it always came off as just...adorable? And like you can tell the woman thinks he's a sweet old man and she's perfectly content to smile and talk to him. At no point does she feel unsafe or like maybe he might be waiting in the parking lot for her after her shift or waiting for a chance to grab her or something. It's perfectly comfortable to humor his flirtation and feel good that perhaps she made his day, because he would otherwise be rather lonely.
I think that for women in the world, "sleazy"...when a man ignores a boundary...gets us to a place where we don't feel safe. It sends the clear message that he's got an agenda and he is not so likely to take no for an answer. And I know that some men have felt violated when interacting with women, too. Hell, actually, I've felt this way with other women myself. I've had my body pawed in a completely inappropriate way by drunk women before...the only difference was, while the behavior was disgusting, it did not feel threatening to me. I didn't have the slightest sense that they might try to follow me or hurt me. If a man...any man...did the same? It wouldn't just be disgust, it'd be alarm claxons and taking deliberate steps and strategies to try and up my safety. Get away from him, recruit allies to protect me, intense situational awareness would kick in.
But the thing is...most women in this world understand that a man might not understand a subtle boundary. We aren't blowing a rape whistle because you said hello or looked at us. And men who act like that could realistically happen at any moment, really make me think that they want to be able to truly push boundaries and have that be OK, and if women don't like it we're "overreacting." The point where we get upset or feel unsafe is when we feel that we have made it pretty CLEAR that we're not interested in whatever your agenda is, don't really want to interact, and yet you have persisted.
Like, attempting to make conversation with a stranger in public is not bad behavior. But if they give a clipped answer and a cold shoulder, and then you literally follow them around demanding that they talk to you, THAT IS. And it seems to me like it's the kind of dude who would do that, who would later complain to others that their target was overreacting and you just can't even TALK to women anymore omg... Like, "I only wanted to follow her around staring for half an hour, what's the big deal, why can't she take a joke?" Some guys LIKE to make others feel uncomfortable, it gives them amusement or a thrill, and then they get mad when the other person does not take it so lightly.
That's sleazy, or worse.
Other sleazy behavior is deceptive and predatory. Twenty years ago when I was a desperately poor young mother, I was leaving the welfare office and there was a sketchy guy cruising around the parking lot, trying to give his phone number to youngish women who were there without a man (which of course was quite a lot) even those of us pushing a stroller with a child in it. He was trying to pitch a "modeling job"...I'm pretty sure it was a flimsy cover for some sort of human trafficking or porn or sex work recruitment, and he was counting on poor, desperate, uneducated women to fall for his scheme. You really do not get much sleazier than that.
really old guys who are at restaurants alone. You get the sense that they are perhaps widowed, and this is where they go for a little social interaction ... there's no agenda besides enjoying interacting with a pretty younger woman.
It's not sleazy, but at the same time, why? There are plenty of great mid-age and older women out there.
I feel like if the main reason you're talking to someone is because they're 22 and hot - you're doing it for the wrong reasons. Its superficial; he gets some sort of social proof of hanging out with a young girl for an hour; she gets a tip.
There are age 50+ social groups and communities - where people are actively looking to make friendships - that he'd more likely find a meaningful friendships or a partner from. They'd give him the time of day. Rather than someone at their job who is 1/2 his age.
It's not sleazy, but at the same time, why? There are plenty of great mid-age and older women out there.
I feel like if the main reason you're talking to someone is because they're 22 and hot - you're doing it for the wrong reasons. Its superficial; he gets some sort of social proof of hanging out with a young girl for an hour; she gets a tip.
There are age 50+ social groups and communities - where people are actively looking to make friendships - that he'd more likely find a meaningful friendships or a partner from. They'd give him the time of day. Rather than someone at their job who is 1/2 his age.
Why?
Mostly because I think these dudes have no agenda beyond the moment. They aren't actually trying to get anywhere with these young women. I would imagine that if a woman their age struck up a conversation, they'd participate, but they aren't really trying to engage in a serious way with anyone.
And frankly, a lot of them probably feel drawn to youth and beauty. As long as they keep it respectful (and tip the waitress!) I don't think that the women mind. I know I didn't during my brief time as a waitress.
But then, I'm generally a fan of "flirting for fun" rather than "flirting with intent." I've also known people who just flirt all the freaking time with all sorts of people, plenty of whom they would never date or sleep with, too.
Location: As of 2022….back to SoCal. OC this time!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
But then, I'm generally a fan of "flirting for fun" rather than "flirting with intent." I've also known people who just flirt all the freaking time with all sorts of people, plenty of whom they would never date or sleep with, too.
If you’re single & they are too, yes… But, why express playful interest & flirt with somebody if they aren’t flirting back or it’s just for “fun”? It sounds like leading somebody on IMO…or a total waste of time, especially if the person isn’t single because it may get the other person thinking they are emotionally available to talk with them more or date. That could change to sleazy if you aren’t being honest about it.
I’ve had men try to flirt with me & I’ve seen women try to flirt with my husband for “fun” knowing we are married. It may not mean anything & we can think it’s funny, but they can have an ulterior motive…tho ofc they are going to act innocent about it. I would never want to be “that girl”. IMO you have to know where to draw the line if you are in a relationship or married because there’s a difference between flirting & just being nice to ppl.
If you’re single & they are too, yes… But, why express playful interest & flirt with somebody if they aren’t flirting back or it’s just for “fun”? It sounds like leading somebody on IMO…or a total waste of time, especially if the person isn’t single because it may get the other person thinking they are emotionally available to talk with them more or date. That could change to sleazy if you aren’t being honest about it.
I’ve had men try to flirt with me & I’ve seen women try to flirt with my husband for “fun” knowing we are married. It may not mean anything & we can think it’s funny, but they can have an ulterior motive…tho ofc they are going to act innocent about it. I would never want to be “that girl”. IMO you have to know where to draw the line if you are in a relationship or married because there’s a difference between flirting & just being nice to ppl.
It requires a bit of "reading the room" and picking up on people's nonverbal cues. Obviously you don't do this if you can't read nuance. The people you are interacting with need to know that you're not actually after anything or offering anything, and you've got to be NOT making them uncomfortable.
Like two good friends who are straight and same gender, might make "flirty" (innuendo) comments that were nothing but jokes, but if they said it in a situation where sexual possibility existed, different context with a different person, it could be taken a different way. Because they are close friends they know each other really well and know that they are both just joking around. Or like a gay man and a straight woman, if there is flirty banter they both know it isn't "real" it's just for fun. Well, if I (or whoever) has made it clear that no actual sex or dating is on the table, then some people can enjoy that kind of conversation for its own sake without just doing it because they are on a mission to get something.
I think it's great when women flirt with my husband. I know he won't take them up on anything they may have to offer even if they are offering anything, but it makes him feel attractive and seen and I am happy for him to get that feeling, from me or from anybody, any time. He's a big boy, he knows how to say no before anything gets serious. And our friend Fernando, flirts with both of us and everybody else constantly. We love him, he's just one of those "life of the party" types.
Leading someone on? LOL what? Flirtation is not consent. The deal ain't sealed until it's sealed. That notion is like saying they were led to expect something and then felt cheated of something that was promised them...which is ridiculous. That's like high school level interaction. Not how it works in my circles at least.
And it's not a waste of time if everyone is having fun. Kind of the whole point of going to social gatherings.
At least it is for me. And others who don't treat life like an MLM scheme.
Flirty is you lick your lips, sleazy is you lick his face.
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9,297 posts, read 4,573,025 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
But then, I'm generally a fan of "flirting for fun" rather than "flirting with intent." I've also known people who just flirt all the freaking time with all sorts of people, plenty of whom they would never date or sleep with, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
It requires a bit of "reading the room" and picking up on people's nonverbal cues. Obviously you don't do this if you can't read nuance. The people you are interacting with need to know that you're not actually after anything or offering anything, and you've got to be NOT making them uncomfortable.
You’re so right Sonic, I was never the type of girl to flirt for “fun” with “all sorts of people”. My flirting was intentional because I was genuinely interested in a man & I could “read” he was flirting & interested in me too. I wouldn’t want to lead anyone on or let them think I am interested in them if I wasn’t. I get enough of that kind of attention…even now that I’m married. It’s annoying. So, for me….flirting was always intentional to show friendly interest in getting to know him more.
And, how are they going to know you don’t have any interest in them if you are showing a playful interest in them by flirting? That makes no sense. How are they supposed to read that in a room?
Last edited by TashaPosh; 03-03-2023 at 10:26 AM..
Flirty is you lick your lips, sleazy is you lick his face.
Ha!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TashaPosh
You’re so right Sonic, I was never the type of girl to flirt for “fun” with “all sorts of people”. My flirting was intentional because I was genuinely interested in a man & I could “read” he was flirting & interested in me too. I wouldn’t want to lead anyone on or let them think I am interested in them if I wasn’t. I get enough of that kind of attention…even now that I’m married. It’s annoying. So, for me….flirting was always intentional to show friendly interest in getting to know him more.
And, how are they going to know you don’t have any interest in them if you are showing a playful interest in them by flirting? That makes no sense. How are they supposed to read that in a room?
OK first I'm gonna pin down what I mean.
When I had a jealous husband (ex), if I had a conversation in line at a concert, with a man, that was 100% about the band we were about to see, then simply giving that individual my attention and talking to him was "flirting."
Some men might consider it "flirting" if a woman just has ANY kind of conversation with them.
I don't think that's flirting.
But regardless of what anyone (like my ex, or even the guy I'm talking to) may choose to read into it, if the guy is under the mistaken impression that me simply talking to him is some sort of invitation, should he mention anything that indicates to me that he's got the wrong idea, I WILL set him straight, politely but firmly. No problems.
I have had men at parties compliment me in a way that indicates interest. I would smile and thank them but also find a way to mention my husband in conversation in the minute or two to follow. Said man would often then respond by saying that my husband is a lucky guy and that would be that. He "read the room."
Now lets get more into territory that would be considered flirting by most reasonable people whether it is for fun (banter) or with intent... Sexual innuendo. I'll remind you that I'm part of a social group that isn't shy to talk about these sorts of things, and leave it at that. Our comfort level is different from yours and from that of many people and that's fine...it's a self-selecting group! Now, in some contexts, talking about sexual subjects with a man would be construed as flirtation (with intent)...but among these folks, we just, we're like nerds about this stuff. I know what various people are into, what they're not, even though neither of us considered the other a candidate for any activities together.
And we find double-entendre and sexual innuendo to be very funny when it's done in a clever way, so those kinds of jokes get tossed around a lot. In a group where we know people to be flirty by nature and flirty with everyone, it's part of group bonding dynamics. We all know that if we wanted to try and actually make something happen, we'd need to communicate somewhat more clearly than just playfully joking around. Like, ask them out on a date, for instance.
And sure, we do sometimes have new people to the group take the more common kind of flirtatious behavior as a hopeful sign of interest, but we are generally pretty comfortable with heading it off with a friendly but firm and clear statement that we are not available/interested if it comes to that.
As I've said...I don't actually have any problems with men who don't see the boundary and run into it by accident, but once I have stopped them and said, "Oh, hey sorry, I get you didn't know but there is a boundary here. See this? Yeah. Boundary. One step back please and thank you" (metaphorically speaking)...if at that point they decide to keep pushing anyways that's where it begins to get aggravating for me.
To set aside all of the rest of this stuff - If a normal stranger man in the world just came up to me and said out of nowhere, "Hey I noticed that band shirt you're wearing, I like them too! And I don't encounter many pretty women who like <band>...would you like to get coffee sometime?" I would be pleased he noticed and gracious in my reply but I'd turn him down, and I would not be annoyed at him for asking. No matter that I'm married and no matter what he looks like, my "read the room" sense would tell me he is hoping for more than coffee and conversation and I will indicate a boundary because I don't expect him to know there was one there, until he asked.
I'll say no graciously but I expect him to take the no, graciously.
I do the same thing if I find myself misinterpreted in any other situation.
Location: As of 2022….back to SoCal. OC this time!
9,297 posts, read 4,573,025 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
But then, I'm generally a fan of "flirting for fun" rather than "flirting with intent." I've also known people who just flirt all the freaking time with all sorts of people, plenty of whom they would never date or sleep with, too
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
Some men might consider it "flirting" if a woman just has ANY kind of conversation with them.
I don't think that's flirting.
ITA. I don’t think being nice to ppl, having a friendly conversation at a gathering, or being well liked is flirting. And, I don’t think if a woman starts to flirt with my husband, he is flirting with her.
BUT, you said flirting & not just talking to ppl. AND, IMO….if ppl go around the room flirting with no “intention”, I don’t see the reason for it. If they get called out for it, ofc they are going to be like “oh I’m not interested in him, I was just doing it for fun”. They would be too embarrassed. It’s like a man who flirts with women behind his wife’s back & then he acts innocent about it when the gossip gets back to her. It can be the other way around too ofc. It can turn flirty into sleazy. I wouldn’t want to be married to that guy or be that girl who flirts with “all sorts of people”.
ITA. I don’t think being nice to ppl, having a friendly conversation at a gathering, or being well liked is flirting. And, I don’t think if a woman starts to flirt with my husband, he is flirting with her.
BUT, you said flirting & not just talking to ppl. AND, IMO….if ppl go around the room flirting with no “intention”, I don’t see the reason for it. If they get called out for it, ofc they are going to be like “oh I’m not interested in him, I was just doing it for fun”. They would be too embarrassed. It’s like a man who flirts with women behind his wife’s back & then he acts innocent about it when the gossip gets back to her. It can be the other way around too ofc. It can turn flirty into sleazy. I wouldn’t want to be married to that guy or be that girl who flirts with “all sorts of people”.
I find it interesting, if only to a point, how far the disconnect in thinking extends between people of one mindset and those of another.
But as I said, my social group is self selecting. You would not find yourself in it by accident. And if you did, flirtation is the least of what would make you uncomfortable, I'm sure.
Nothing is being done behind anybody's back. And it's not at all a matter of testing the waters and then upon being rejected or "called out" claiming to simply be joking. Jokes are not jokes if no one is laughing. Hence, reading the room.
I mean...
I wouldn’t want to be married to that guy or be that girl who flirts with “all sorts of people”.
Who is asking you to?
No one.
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Ha!
