Should House Concerts be Banned? (cars, driveways, children)

[joey2000]

It brings out the best but more often the worst in people.

SSA, well said, btw.

[Usedtobe VaNC]

But these are zoning laws. Things we have decided that you can't do in a residential neighborhood of various densities...such as run a business. True that this guy is across from a church and has a bigger lot, but the law applies to him just like it applies to you and everybody else in the same zoning. If the person across from me decided to start having concerts, which people had to buy a ticket for, 9 times a year for 100 people, I would have a HUGE problem with it. It is irrelevant how the events "feel", they are paid events..no matter who is getting the revenue. And as a lawyer, I can tell you that it was not just the "over 3" issue that mattered, the charging for entry thing too.

There is a guy at the top of my hill that has a home based business. He does not have 100 people to his house, only about three or four, tops, but he was required to put in a parking area in his lot, so that he didn't have cars on the street.

My point is the rules apply to everyone, they shouldn't NOT apply because he has a fun party that you like to go to. You don't have to live next door.

[Stone_Sculpture_Artist]

Originally Posted by Usedtobe VaNC

But these are zoning laws. Things we have decided that you can't do in a residential neighborhood of various densities...such as run a business. True that this guy is across from a church and has a bigger lot, but the law applies to him just like it applies to you and everybody else in the same zoning. If the person across from me decided to start having concerts, which people had to buy a ticket for, 9 times a year for 100 people, I would have a HUGE problem with it. It is irrelevant how the events "feel", they are paid events..no matter who is getting the revenue. And as a lawyer, I can tell you that it was not just the "over 3" issue that mattered, the charging for entry thing too.

There is a guy at the top of my hill that has a home based business. He does not have 100 people to his house, only about three or four, tops, but he was required to put in a parking area in his lot, so that he didn't have cars on the street.

My point is the rules apply to everyone, they shouldn't NOT apply because he has a fun party that you like to go to. You don't have to live next door.

A few points you failed to recognize.
1. What defines a business operation in this specific case? The owner is not profiting from it.

2. If the property owner restructures things, even just a little and only asks for donations for the bands, the business theory is a moot issue. And this is what I suspect they will do. But I'll bet then city still harasses them. This is why God invented lawyers.........

Having 100 people over a few times per year to enjoy festive music on a 3 acre lot, inside in a living room is not against the law.

So you see, as the neighbor and city looking in from the outside, the results and affects will remain the same! Only difference is how the money changes hands. Problem solved? Or does some city official have a bug in his rear? I suspect the later.

So what next? You have me and 75 of your good friends over this Sunday to watch football and I bring a big string bean casserole. Is the city going to shut you down, cause my string bean casserole is considered a monitory gain?

[lovebrentwood]

Per my earlier post, the inspectors said the money exchange made no difference.

It was the number of times they held the house concerts...which to me, really makes no sense. Three is the limit.

And again, it had nothing to do with its effect on the neighborhood.

And yes, if you invite your 75 friends over for more than three games, with their green bean casseroles, I guess you'd better watch out, because if you DARE to invite them for a fourth game, the city will fine you $500, and $500 for each game thereafter. Because to the city, it may appear to be a business that you're running. Maybe you have a really big and wonderful television, and the lawyering business is slow, and you're trying to make back your money by reselling those green bean casseroles on the open market.

As an anonymous concerned citizen, I want to know! It's against the law!

[North_Raleigh_Guy]

Here is a better article that describes the what was discussed that the meeting that deemed them a "business"

Link (http://www.indyweekblogs.com/citizen/2009/12/bett-padgetts-house-concerts-ruled-a-business-the-limit-is-three-a-year/ - broken link)

Looks to me like there are some city staff that are on the side of this homeowner and looking for ways to correct the zoning issue and allow them to hold these events.

"City Councilor Thomas Crowder may also try to get the zoning code revised to better distinguish between concerts for profit, which should be illegal, and concerts for guests in your home, which should be allowed. After yesterday’s decision, both are illegal if you host more than three a year."

I still think these people should be allowed to apply for a conditional use permit to allow for such events.

[CHTransplant]

Originally Posted by Stone_Sculpture_Artist

So what next? You have me and 75 of your good friends over this Sunday to watch football and I bring a big string bean casserole. Is the city going to shut you down, cause my string bean casserole is considered a monitory gain?

Originally Posted by lovebrentwood

And yes, if you invite your 75 friends over for more than three games, with their green bean casseroles, I guess you'd better watch out, because if you DARE to invite them for a fourth game, the city will fine you $500, and $500 for each game thereafter.

I just don't see this one event as a harbinger of an excessive zoning enforcement policy. The parade of horribles that has been offered up - shutting down birthday parties, bible studies, football viewing parties, etc. - seems extremely remote, and there's been nothing said by city personnel to suggest such actions are coming. (I'm not supporting the enforcement actions in this case - I don't know enough about the relevant law or the facts of this case to judge.)

[lovebrentwood]

Thanks for that link, NRG. That's good news.

As far as the examples, no, I don't think the Raleigh Gestapo will be shutting down any birthday parties, but they are just used as examples, in comparison to the house concerts, to illustrate how ridiculous the law is.

[jeffs555]

I don't see the law as ridiculous at all and I don't see any of the examples of birthday parties and football viewing parties as comparable. Take a look at their web site from last year. http://web.archive.org/web/200803130...rts/index.html
It talks about "100% of the gate", being "sold out", and lists a dollar amount for reservations. Sure looks like a business to me.

Even if they are not making a profit or running a business, business is being conducted. They are opening their home to musicians who are running a business and even advertising for them. Just because the majority of people like the music doesn't excuse it.

Even if they are doing it just because they love music, that doesn't excuse it. How about if your neighbor just loved flea markets and decided to open their home for free to flea market vendors once a month and advertised it on the internet. Would that be acceptable? How about if they were a gun lover and decided to open their home for free once a month to licensed gun dealers to come display their wares and then advertised it all over the internet?

[Bill Padgett]

The ‘Complaint’ really wasn’t a ‘Compliant’
We want to thank Raleigh Inspections for meeting with us this past Friday because we were concerned that if we were a nuisance of any type for our neighbors (the N&O reported ‘a neighbor’s complaint) we would not want to continue with our House Concerts events even though ‘3’ are now legally permitted each year. We were able to talk with the city staff person that received the initial inquiries … and she affirmed that they were only inquiries from someone wanting to also have House Concerts.
While we don’t know whether the ‘inquiries’ were for the purpose of establishing another House Concert venue ‘for their community’ YEA!! Or to bring attention that we were doing House Concerts ‘for our Community’ and should be investigated, BUT we hope that the inquiry was to expand music by promoting the arts, the artists and enhancing the community. The staff person that received the calls (there were more than one call from this person), stated that the inquirer did not complain about our House Concerts but they wanted to ‘do their own house concerts, charge a fee, make a profit and have them every week’. The City explained they were not allowed. They noted that concerts were being held at Moderator cut: address … so why couldn’t they be allowed? There are no official documents of the actual calls.
The City – AS THEY SHOULD - then looked into our House Concerts – and the information on our House Concerts was that were right there on our webpage.

Moderator cut: No self-promotional comments, please.

They investigated our activity (as the City is supposed to do) and cited us with a possible violation of having a ‘prima facia’ (on first glance looked like we were) business in our home …. While we may not agree with the decision, the City did what it was supposed to do.
This posting is for two reasons;
1) All events like gatherings in our homes (music, parties and otherwise) should be controlled by the nuisance laws and ordinances which we have in place. When they become a nuisance, the City should take proper recourse.
2) And to THANK all of our neighbors that have been so supportive over the decade and in many cases have come into our home for these concerts. And to reaffirm that while we have had no complaint of any nature that our concerts were a negative impact on the community, we would immediate cease and desist having these concerts were they to become a nuisance and detriment.

The legal part of this discussion gets kind of complex .. Raleigh code (which we believe to be in error) states that 'if you are a prima facia business' (ie look like a business -- you don't actually have to be a business, just appear to be) then it is not allowed in residential neighborhoods. I think the law meant that you should be found to be a business, not a 'prima facia (look like) business', to have the activity declared illegal. And then there are all those first amendment rights like freedom of assumbly, freedom of speech and the right to pursuit of happiness.

We are weighing what our next steps should be. Your thoughts would be appreciated.
Bill Padgett

[bvanevery]

Originally Posted by lovebrentwood

If I wanted to hire another type of musician and wanted to ask for donations, is it the GOVERNMENT's role to tell me I CAN'T DO THAT IN MY OWN HOME?

To the extent that you do it with 100 people parking their cars on the nearby neighborhood streets, violating fire safety occupancy codes, or noise ordinances, yes it is. In such instances you're either creating a public nuisance or a threat to public safety.

Really, c'mon, tons of total strangers show up at your home, hand you money to pay for musicians, and you don't think that's a business? Gimme a break.