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The Constitution is a social contract between three parties: The people, the government, and the people collectibly. Our Government exists as a mutual cooperation between the STATES and the PEOPLE of the STATES, not God...so the fact you guys keep putting Him in your arguments is verbose. God has NOTHING to do with the foundation of America.
Now...I suggest all of you who claim to know an ounce about the Constitution go read John Locke--who penned the phrase social contract. The Constitution wasn't the first document to outline American law---we had the Articles of Confederation first. When that proved inept, almost none of the men present in 1776 were at the Constit. Convention in 1787, when they proceeed to basically just copy the Massachusetts Constitution written 7 years prior by John Adams.
The Bill of Rights weren't even apart of the original document. Again, when Massachusett went to ratify the document, it was lacking those 10 statements. It wouldn't be until Massachusetts was reassured certain rights would be gauranteed that it would ratify the document.
The Declaration of Independence, though, an extraordinary and beautiful document, has NO legal standing. Those rights, Life, Liberty and Happiness are endowed (supplied) by God the Creator, but this is key, PROTECTED BY GOVERNMENT--you guys need to read the following sentence, it's important to understanding the point of government. "That to secrue these Rights, governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the Consent of the Governed..."
Our Government's prime responsibilty is to protect and promote life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, ie all the conditions of humanity, ALL HUMANITY, not just some. However, there is not single human who can define what those three qualities are--as they are different for each of us.
I don't see enough wisdom being demonstrated here to afford you such an arrogant tone, let alone license to teach.
The Declaration of Independence is a contextual backdrop for the legal document, the US Constitution, and when some confusion might arise as to the intent of a particular area of the constitution, the Declaration of Independence, along with other writings are often used to establish such context.
To say "God has nothing to do with the foundation of America" shows complete ignorance of the content and context of the very creation of this country (The Declaration of Independence) and the creation of the laws and structuring of a government outlined and established by the Constitution.
Quote:
When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
For all of the liberal Darwinists out there ... the founding fathers also believed in "Creation" and not evolution ...
I don't see enough wisdom being demonstrated here to afford you such an arrogant tone, let alone license to teach.
The Declaration of Independence is a contextual backdrop for the legal document, the US Constitution, and when some confusion might arise as to the intent of a particular area of the constitution, the Declaration of Independence, along with other writings are often used to establish such context.
To say "God has nothing to do with the foundation of America" shows complete ignorance of the content and context of the very creation of this country (The Declaration of Independence) and the creation of the laws and structuring of a government outlined and established by the Constitution.
For all of the liberal Darwinists out there ... the founding fathers also believed in "Creation" and not evolution ...
First off, our Founding Fathers were highly questionable about the existenence of God---they were men of the Enlightenment. Their view of God was very laissz-faire, He's around, but doesnt do much. They didn't want God in the equation, they saw how it tore Europe apart.
Two, it's pretty clear you have no idea what your talking about. We have a separation of Church and State for a reason--get use to it.
Three, I wasn't teaching anything, it ought to be basic knowledge, Christ, I learned this stuff back in high school. I know the Dec is a basis, but it's not law. The Constitution is only a frame of government, it's open ended. They meant for future generations to adopt it for their use while maintaining keys principles, a fact you clealy overlook.
Yeah, go read John Locke, the Father of Liberalism, a social contract is his idea.
Oh, and the world is not 6000 years old. You and I are certianly related to monkeys. Darwin wouldn't write his treatise until 50 years after the founding of the Republic..so
Women in western civilization literally had no rights, like literally none until the 1920s. In Ancient Athens they weren't even counted as citizens--slaves were. In the Middle Ages, do you the Catholic Church cared about the wellbeing and girls--not a chance. They were used for bearing children, that's it. The female's family had to pay a dowery to have her married off, she was essentially property.
Women in many Islamic cultures are given great responsibilties. Saudi Arabia is not too true to Islam, nor is the Taliban. I have travelled extensively in Egypt, women are treated very fairly.
I really don't think your vacationing in Egypt has gained you the worldliness you believe you possess. And your depiction of Islamic treatment of women is LAUGHABLE. I'll tell you this, the whiny arsed feminists of America need only spend some time in one of several Islamic cultures before they'd be begging to return to their "suffrage" here.
Just recently, a Saudi Arabian woman was gang raped ... she received a greater punishment for being outside her home without proper male relative escort, than did the rapists who brutalized her. In another recent case, an elderly woman of 75 was convicted and sentenced to 40 lashes, 4 months in prison and deportation for allowing two young men into her home to deliver bread. One was related to her late husband.
In Sudan, 13 women face 40 lashes after they were arrested for wearing trousers in public.
I could go on for pages and pages ... such as 11 year old girls being sold to 50 year old men ... the little girl runs away and she is charged with a crime and she is liable to repay the man for the fee he paid for her.
Your ignorance of the plight of women in the Islamic world, while calling upon the suffrage of women is INCONCEIVABLE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lmkcin
Now, every culture had slavery. It was accepted in the world 'til about 150 years ago...although it stills exists in some parts today. That same God also said to not eat pork...so, it's questionable.
Tyranny is certainly man-made and it always extends from the same thing, "I'm right and you're wrong."
Tyranny has nothing to do with that. Tyranny is about might equals right, about the strong over the weak .. about the corrupt over the righteous.
As for slavery, it is more prevalent, and enslaves more people today than at any time in human history. There are just a bunch of new names attached to it now.
I really don't think your vacationing in Egypt has gained you the worldliness you believe you possess. And your depiction of Islamic treatment of women is LAUGHABLE. I'll tell you this, the whiny arsed feminists of America need only spend some time in one of several Islamic cultures before they'd be begging to return to their "suffrage" here.
Just recently, a Saudi Arabian woman was gang raped ... she received a greater punishment for being outside her home without proper male relative escort, than did the rapists who brutalized her. In another recent case, an elderly woman of 75 was convicted and sentenced to 40 lashes, 4 months in prison and deportation for allowing two young men into her home to deliver bread. One was related to her late husband.
In Sudan, 13 women face 40 lashes after they were arrested for wearing trousers in public.
I could go on for pages and pages ... such as 11 year old girls being sold to 50 year old men ... the little girl runs away and she is charged with a crime and she is liable to repay the man for the fee he paid for her.
Your ignorance of the plight of women in the Islamic world, while calling upon the suffrage of women is INCONCEIVABLE.
Tyranny has nothing to do with that. Tyranny is about might equals right, about the strong over the weak .. about the corrupt over the righteous.
As for slavery, it is more prevalent, and enslaves more people today than at any time in human history. There are just a bunch of new names attached to it now.
Seriously? You didn't read a thing I wrote. My best friend is Muslim. I wrote that Suadi Arabian is a corruption of Islam. And what's happening in the Sudan has nothing to do with Islam--see religion is used to justify everything under the sun, but it sounds as if, you're okay with that.
I didn't just "travel" in Egpty, I spent signifigant time there, I'm positive more than you could have.
Some of the people on this forum make it truly difficult to American.
To say "God has nothing to do with the foundation of America" shows complete ignorance of the content and context of the very creation of this country (The Declaration of Independence) and the creation of the laws and structuring of a government outlined and established by the Constitution.
For all of the liberal Darwinists out there ... the founding fathers also believed in "Creation" and not evolution ...
I wouldn't say that it had nothing to do since opinions and beliefs varied greatly from one person to the next, but I might point out that in Jefferson's first drafts of the Declaration, the word god nor creator can be found. Most scholars of the Declaration believe that the phrase was inserted as an after thought sometime prior to the Declaration being submitted to the Congress.
As you undoubtedly know the Declaration was ultimately the product of a committee comprised of Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, Roger Sherman and Robert Livingston. While Adams and Sherman were decidedly Christians, Jefferson and Franklin were not. As for Livingston, his appointment was a purely political maneuver to get New York on board. So it wouldn't be a stretch to suppose that the inclusion of the word creator, while not of tantamount importance to the authors might have been deemed prudent for purely political purposes.
I would like to point out, as has been pointed out innumerable times, in 1797 The U.S. Senate ratified and President Adams signed, the Treaty of Tripoli which states in Article 11
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;"
PS - As for the Founders not believing in evolution... seeing how the Origins of the Species wasn't published until 1859, that fact isn't exactly surprising.
Those of us who cherish freedom know that the Constitution and Declaration of Independence lets us know that certain rights and freedoms are granted by GOD and not another man.
Maybe this is why the Tea Party movement is gaining such steam. They believe in those inalienble rights granted by GOD and not some clown in an Ivory tower with an ugly dog.
Could we be witnessing GOOD vs. EVIL in action?
Why such an attack on the Constitution.?
Can you prove that there is a GOD?
Didn't think so.
A whole bunch of us don't believe in a god or we believe in different gods.
Please tell me what the attack on the constitution is.
Please be clear so that I can understand your points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
Actually, there are many passages in the Bible which commands the proper treatment of slaves, and not one that prohibits or condemns the practice. So one would be forced to conclude that it is at least a God "condoned" practice at the very least. (not that I agree with slavery ... just making sure the record is straight)
To make such a statement, can you please show me proof of a god.
And the bible is just a book used to explain the universe for a bunch of people who had no understanding of the world.
You're inserting your personal beliefs into my government documents.
How can you feel justified to do this?
BTW, for me, my creator is my mother's egg and father's sperm and the incubation process.
Last edited by AuntieMame; 03-31-2010 at 11:39 AM..
As any legal scholar will tell you, it's not so much the founding documents and laws that determine current dictums but the interpretation of those laws and documents. The Supreme Court is the only authority that we the people have endowed with the power to interpret the constitution. What ever they say is the law of the land. As is obvious, there are many "kitchen table" constitutional experts who interpret the constitution as it affects their interests. The Supreme Court interprets the constitution as it affects the interests of all citizens as a whole.
The Constitution and Declaration of Independence are VALID DOCUMENTS. if they were not, why would other countries have them?
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