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Facts. Not narratives. Stalin invaded Poland. Blaming Poland for getting invaded is just as bad as when the nazis blamed Poland for the invasion the nazis themselves carried out. I would call it "pretzel logic", but it's all pretzel and no logic.
Facts are facts. Sadly you skipped a lot of them. I don't really want to defend Stalin, but he tried to negotiate, unsuccessfully, with France and Britain. And Britain and France were the main reason negotiations failed. The Nazi policies were well known ( they went after communists FIRST, combine that with the Slavic thing ), so he knew they were coming, just a matter of time. And the fact that he literally destroyed the high command during the purges did not help. So he was desperate to get some sort of treaty
P.S. Lastly, there is a person responsible for more Polish deaths than Stalin. Do you care to guess who that is? I'll give you a hint, streets in Ukraine are named after him. So, while, I'm against this war, I find this utterly reprehensible.
Facts. Not narratives. Stalin invaded Poland. Blaming Poland for getting invaded is just as bad as when the nazis blamed Poland for the invasion the nazis themselves carried out. I would call it "pretzel logic", but it's all pretzel and no logic.
So Poland siding with Germany and participating in partition of Czechoslovakia - is it a fact or not?
Facts are facts. Sadly you skipped a lot of them. I don't really want to defend Stalin, but he tried to negotiate, unsuccessfully, with France and Britain. And Britain and France were the main reason negotiations failed. The Nazi policies were well known ( they went after communists FIRST, combine that with the Slavic thing ), so he knew they were coming, just a matter of time. And the fact that he literally destroyed the high command during the purges did not help. So he was desperate to get some sort of treaty
P.S. Lastly, there is a person responsible for more Polish deaths than Stalin. Do you care to guess who that is? I'll give you a hint, streets in Ukraine are named after him. So, while, I'm against this war, I find this utterly reprehensible.
A lot of people here love to stick to narratives. They don't like facts, because they are inconvenient and don't support their narratives. So they prefer to pick the starting points that suit their agenda.
Facts are facts. Sadly you skipped a lot of them. I don't really want to defend Stalin, but he tried to negotiate, unsuccessfully, with France and Britain. And Britain and France were the main reason negotiations failed. The Nazi policies were well known ( they went after communists FIRST, combine that with the Slavic thing ), so he knew they were coming, just a matter of time. And the fact that he literally destroyed the high command during the purges did not help. So he was desperate to get some sort of treaty
P.S. Lastly, there is a person responsible for more Polish deaths than Stalin. Do you care to guess who that is? I'll give you a hint, streets in Ukraine are named after him. So, while, I'm against this war, I find this utterly reprehensible.
I'm pretty sure this has already been talked about in the previous Ukraine war thread, but Stalin had all the Polish military command killed, or sent to die in gulags. The USSR were not the "good guys". They also invaded Finland and got their butts kicked for the most part, although they did manage to steal a fair bit of that nation's land and ultimately win the war. But only because they were willing to sacrifice far more troops than the Finns could muster. I believe Finland had perhaps 3 million people total at the time. The USSR had maybe 150 million? The USSR took retaliatory measures against Finland's military leadership after the war as well. Because they had the audacity to defend themselves against a much larger Russian invasion.
Ask any Polish person that lived under the control of the USSR what they think of Russia. The vast majority seem to have a deep seated hatred for Russia. A kind of hatred that I can't possibly harbor because Russia has been insignificant and unimportant for all of my years of existence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
So Poland siding with Germany and participating in partition of Czechoslovakia - is it a fact or not?
I guess the answer to your question depends on whether you live in Russia, or the west. Because we probably aren't going to be able to agree to any one particular version of "the truth".
I'm pretty sure this has already been talked about in the previous Ukraine war thread, but Stalin had all the Polish military command killed, or sent to die in gulags. The USSR were not the "good guys". They also invaded Finland and got their butts kicked for the most part, although they did manage to steal a fair bit of that nation's land. They took retaliatory measures against Finland's military leadership after the war as well. Because they had the audacity to defend themselves against Russia's invasion.
Ask any Polish person that lived under the control of the USSR. The vast majority have a deep seated hatred for Russia. A kind of hatred that I can't possibly harbor because Russia has been insignificant and unimportant for all of my years of existence.
I see.
Next potential cannon fodder in line that the West will try to use in this war.
Even though the majority of Poles that will go under Russian artillery never lived in Soviet times.
I'm pretty sure this has already been talked about in the previous Ukraine war thread, but Stalin had all the Polish military command killed, or sent to die in gulags. The USSR were not the "good guys". They also invaded Finland and got their butts kicked for the most part, although they did manage to steal a fair bit of that nation's land and ultimately win the war. But only because they were willing to sacrifice far more troops than the Finns could muster. I believe Finland had perhaps 3 million people total at the time. Russia had maybe 150 million? The USSR took retaliatory measures against Finland's military leadership after the war as well. Because they had the audacity to defend themselves against a much larger Russian invasion.
Ask any Polish person that lived under the control of the USSR what they think of Russia. The vast majority seem to have a deep seated hatred for Russia. A kind of hatred that I can't possibly harbor because Russia has been insignificant and unimportant for all of my years of existence.
I guess the answer to your question depends on whether you live in Russia, or the west. Because we probably aren't going to be able to agree to any one particular version of "the truth".
That's not how it works.
I can live on the moon, but facts remain facts independently of where I live.
Because when the answers start depending on "where I live" - that's not facts any longer, it's already a narrative.
The fact however remains;
" At noon on 30 September, Poland gave an ultimatum to the Czechoslovak government that demanded the immediate evacuation of Czechoslovak troops and police and gave Prague time until noon the following day. At 11:45 a.m. on 1 October the Czechoslovak foreign ministry called the Polish ambassador in Prague and told him that Poland could have what it wanted. The Polish Army, commanded by General Władysław Bortnowski, annexed an area of 801.5 km2 with a population of 227,399 people."
So the "disinfo" content that you are trying to link as some "proof" of Poland's innocence with all its apologies, doesn't change what happened BACK THEN, and how Poland was perceived by the Russians.
I.e. as a country/government that was not particularly trustworthy, and rather a potential threat in the long run.
I'm pretty sure this has already been talked about in the previous Ukraine war thread, but Stalin had all the Polish military command killed, or sent to die in gulags. The USSR were not the "good guys". They also invaded Finland and got their butts kicked for the most part, although they did manage to steal a fair bit of that nation's land and ultimately win the war. But only because they were willing to sacrifice far more troops than the Finns could muster. I believe Finland had perhaps 3 million people total at the time. The USSR had maybe 150 million? The USSR took retaliatory measures against Finland's military leadership after the war as well. Because they had the audacity to defend themselves against a much larger Russian invasion.
Ask any Polish person that lived under the control of the USSR what they think of Russia. The vast majority seem to have a deep seated hatred for Russia. A kind of hatred that I can't possibly harbor because Russia has been insignificant and unimportant for all of my years of existence.
I guess the answer to your question depends on whether you live in Russia, or the west. Because we probably aren't going to be able to agree to any one particular version of "the truth".
You did not address anything of what I said. It was all facts.
Btw, Poland was actually appalled by a particular commemoration earlier this year, but eventually it all went under the rag.
Yes, there is a lot of bad blood and believe me, this did not start with Stalin.
P.S. lastly, don't forget, when talking about the control of the USSR, that all of the eastern block countries haf their perfectly own communist parties, which were, like it or not, the main drivers of the anti-fascist resistance.
I can live on the moon, but facts remain facts independently of where I live.
Because when the answers start depending on "where I live" - that's not facts any longer, it's already a narrative.
The fact however remains;
" At noon on 30 September, Poland gave an ultimatum to the Czechoslovak government that demanded the immediate evacuation of Czechoslovak troops and police and gave Prague time until noon the following day. At 11:45 a.m. on 1 October the Czechoslovak foreign ministry called the Polish ambassador in Prague and told him that Poland could have what it wanted. The Polish Army, commanded by General Władysław Bortnowski, annexed an area of 801.5 km2 with a population of 227,399 people."
So the "disinfo" content that you are trying to link as some "proof" of Poland's innocence with all its apologies, doesn't change what happened BACK THEN, and how Poland was perceived by the Russians.
I.e. as a country/government that was not particularly trustworthy, and rather a potential threat in the long run.
So it was treated accordingly to this perception.
Poland did not invade Czechoslovakia. The nazis and the USSR invaded Poland by military force and caused a tremendous amount of suffering and unnecessary bloodshed. Hitler and the USSR made an agreement to attack Poland and divide the country up. As in, the USSR invaded Poland. Where as Poland did not invade Czechoslovakia. The comparison you are trying to make is ludicrous and a lame attempt at revisionist history. I'm fairly certain you are beating a dead horse, as this topic has already been discussed to death in the past Ukraine war thread.
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