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1) I created a hypothetical scenario to establish a principle. You obviously don't want to answer the question because you realize the world is far more complex than "muh territorial integrity".
2) This war didn't begin in 2022, and it was Ukraine who started killing people first.
3) There is no nebulous pretext. There is a pretext, 15000 people had already been killed. Whether it was a sufficient pretext under international law is up for debate.
So why don't you answer my question from before? Or answer this question, who has the rightful claim to Crimea? Ukraine? Russia? The Crimeans? Turks? Greeks? Mongols? Germans? All of those groups have controlled Crimea at various points in history. Ukraine probably has the weakest claim of all of them. Crimea has never been majority Ukrainian. I would rather Crimea be given back to the Crimean Tatars or to the Greeks than for it to be handed to the tyrannical Ukrainian morons.
The Ukrainians are getting exactly what they deserve. Their country is being destroyed. Their population is collapsing. Their women left and will never return. The men will be dead, and among those living will be millions of cripples.
If the so-called Ukrainian nationalists intended to save Ukraine, they did the ****ing opposite. They would have been infinitely better off ceding Crimea to Russia and giving the Donbass autonomy or even agreeing to complete separation. Whoever convinced the Ukrainians that the way to protect Ukraine was to provoke a war with Russia must hate the Ukrainian people.
If America wants to fight the Russians, have America fight them instead of using poor desperate retards in Ukraine as our proxies to do the fighting for us.
There is no victory for Ukraine. And this war will only precipitate the complete collapse of the west.
Go read the actual news, not the western circle-jerk of "Russia is almost out of ammunition", "Russia is isolated", "Russia is collapsing", "Coup plot to oust Putin soon says unnamed Kremlin official", "NATO is more united than ever", "The sanctions are working", etc.
In reality, Europe is going bankrupt, we blew up Nordstream(as we said we would), the polls show Americans don't support this proxy war, the Saudis and Iran are coming together with Russia, China, and India to end western hegemony, and the United States economy is on the verge of imploding. A massive real-estate and financial crash is coming.
See, the reason the Ukrainian Nationalists were so vehemently against Donbass autonomy within Ukraine ( as Putin insisted all along,) was because they KNEW that this autonomy wouldn't stop at Donbass.
Kharkov, Odesssa ( and other Russian-speaking regions) would follow the suit and demand the same kind of independence from the new puppet government in Kiev.
So the coup d'etat organized with the help of Washington would have lost its sense of purpose, because the whole idea behind it, was to hand ALL Ukrainian territories under American control.
The leftovers of Ukrainian state ( without Black Sea and Azov sea ports) didn't represent any particular geopolitical value.
And those were the reasons why it was so important for the Ukrainian Nazi to beat Donbass into submission, so that other regions wouldn't decide to follow its suit.
( That's why they still hate and torture LDNR POWs the most.)
Who is in the right?
People in the right are the ones who don't engage in what-aboutism of fictional scenarios or grossly distort old history and recent events. People in the right don't support killing people in an invasion based on nebulous pretexts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanJuanStar
yeah, this fell from the sky. American self-righteousness world policy. We are right, they are wrong mentally. How did the U.S. foreign policy been "grossly distorted"? You really don't have a problem in killing or invasions since you live in a nation that has done that for centuries. Selective outrage.
First, You are accusing me of having beliefs about the USA's history that I do not hold.
As for "How did the U.S. foreign policy been "grossly distorted"
I didn't say that. I said "grossly distort old history and recent events" like for example those who claim "Hitler didn't want war".
The fact that the Poland has been the bad guy many times in the past does NOT make it OK for Russia to invade and kill people in Ukraine.
The fact that the England has been the bad guy many times in the past does NOT make it OK for Russia to invade and kill people in Ukraine.
The fact that the Italy has been the bad guy many times in the past does NOT make it OK for Russia to invade and kill people in Ukraine.
The fact that the USA has been the bad guy many times in the past does NOT make it OK for Russia to invade and kill people in Ukraine.
The fact that the Japan has been the bad guy many times in the past does NOT make it OK for Russia to invade and kill people in Ukraine.
The fact that the Mongols has been the bad guy many times in the past does NOT make it OK for Russia to invade and kill people in Ukraine.
And the Redshadowz fictional story especially does not justify, well uh, anything.
And just to be sure other people understand, the killing began in 2014 with Russia's invasion of the Donbass and Crimea using the "little green men" who were soon followed by 50,000 Russian troops and military supplies. One of the biggest distortions done by the Russian apologists is to pretend that didn't happen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in...4%E2%80%932022)
First, You are accusing me of having beliefs about the USA's history that I do not hold.
As for "How did the U.S. foreign policy been "grossly distorted"
I didn't say that. I said "grossly distort old history and recent events" like for example those who claim "Hitler didn't want war".
The fact that the Poland has been the bad guy many times in the past does NOT make it OK for Russia to invade and kill people in Ukraine.
The fact that the England has been the bad guy many times in the past does NOT make it OK for Russia to invade and kill people in Ukraine.
The fact that the Italy has been the bad guy many times in the past does NOT make it OK for Russia to invade and kill people in Ukraine.
The fact that the USA has been the bad guy many times in the past does NOT make it OK for Russia to invade and kill people in Ukraine.
The fact that the Japan has been the bad guy many times in the past does NOT make it OK for Russia to invade and kill people in Ukraine.
The fact that the Mongols has been the bad guy many times in the past does NOT make it OK for Russia to invade and kill people in Ukraine.
And the Redshadowz fictional story especially does not justify, well uh, anything.
And just to be sure other people understand, the killing began in 2014 with Russia's invasion of the Donbass and Crimea using the "little green men" who were soon followed by 50,000 Russian troops and military supplies. One of the biggest distortions done by the Russian apologists is to pretend that didn't happen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas_(2014-2022)
You need to put a stop to this Ukrainian propaganda of the "Russian invasion of Donbass," because this falsely leads you to believe, that "the whole country wholeheartedly supported Maidan."
Which is a lie, promoted first by Poroshenko, and now Zelensky's government.
Please point me at the aforementioned "Russian invasion" here, or the "green men."
And this was pretty much the picture all over the South-East soon after Maidan in Kiev.
If the MSNBC never reported you about it, it doesn't mean "it never happened."
First, You are accusing me of having beliefs about the USA's history that I do not hold.
As for "How did the U.S. foreign policy been "grossly distorted"
I didn't say that. I said "grossly distort old history and recent events" like for example those who claim "Hitler didn't want war".
The fact that the Poland has been the bad guy many times in the past does NOT make it OK for Russia to invade and kill people in Ukraine.
The fact that the England has been the bad guy many times in the past does NOT make it OK for Russia to invade and kill people in Ukraine.
The fact that the Italy has been the bad guy many times in the past does NOT make it OK for Russia to invade and kill people in Ukraine.
The fact that the USA has been the bad guy many times in the past does NOT make it OK for Russia to invade and kill people in Ukraine.
The fact that the Japan has been the bad guy many times in the past does NOT make it OK for Russia to invade and kill people in Ukraine.
The fact that the Mongols has been the bad guy many times in the past does NOT make it OK for Russia to invade and kill people in Ukraine.
And the Redshadowz fictional story especially does not justify, well uh, anything.
And just to be sure other people understand, the killing began in 2014 with Russia's invasion of the Donbass and Crimea using the "little green men" who were soon followed by 50,000 Russian troops and military supplies. One of the biggest distortions done by the Russian apologists is to pretend that didn't happen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in...4%E2%80%932022)
"Little green men"? Lol! My favorite was "The Ghost of Kyiv".
Russia knew that the US was preparing a coup and civil war in Ukraine (a Ukrainian member of parliament directly said so in parliament in 2013), the Russians should have intervened much more forcefully, but didn't for certain reasons.
And your list, frankly, you are wrong. If other countries repeatedly break international law and violate the UN charter, than yes, it does mean that Russia can do the same.
Your list sounds like the usual whataboutism accusations. But to me whataboutism is just a negative term for something positive, namely the call for justice and single standards.
If Nato is free to bomb Serbia to pieces without any legal basis, then Russia is free to bomb Ukraine to pieces. If the US is free to keep a part of Syria occupied, Russia is free to keep parts of Ukraine occupied. Etc. Etc. Etc.
Putin chose to *take care of the Russian economy* first and utmost back then , ( trying to avoid additional economic sanctions apparently,) and that's why thousands of people ended up dead.
1) I created a hypothetical scenario to establish a principle. You obviously don't want to answer the question because you realize the world is far more complex than "muh territorial integrity".
2) This war didn't begin in 2022, and it was Ukraine who started killing people first.
3) There is no nebulous pretext. There is a pretext, 15000 people had already been killed. Whether it was a sufficient pretext under international law is up for debate.
So why don't you answer my question from before? Or answer this question, who has the rightful claim to Crimea? Ukraine? Russia? The Crimeans? Turks? Greeks? Mongols? Germans? All of those groups have controlled Crimea at various points in history. Ukraine probably has the weakest claim of all of them. Crimea has never been majority Ukrainian. I would rather Crimea be given back to the Crimean Tatars or to the Greeks than for it to be handed to the tyrannical Ukrainian morons.
The Ukrainians are getting exactly what they deserve. Their country is being destroyed. Their population is collapsing. Their women left and will never return. The men will be dead, and among those living will be millions of cripples.
If the so-called Ukrainian nationalists intended to save Ukraine, they did the ****ing opposite. They would have been infinitely better off ceding Crimea to Russia and giving the Donbass autonomy or even agreeing to complete separation. Whoever convinced the Ukrainians that the way to protect Ukraine was to provoke a war with Russia must hate the Ukrainian people.
If America wants to fight the Russians, have America fight them instead of using poor desperate retards in Ukraine as our proxies to do the fighting for us.
There is no victory for Ukraine. And this war will only precipitate the complete collapse of the west.
Go read the actual news, not the western circle-jerk of "Russia is almost out of ammunition", "Russia is isolated", "Russia is collapsing", "Coup plot to oust Putin soon says unnamed Kremlin official", "NATO is more united than ever", "The sanctions are working", etc.
In reality, Europe is going bankrupt, we blew up Nordstream(as we said we would), the polls show Americans don't support this proxy war, the Saudis and Iran are coming together with Russia, China, India, and the "global south" to end western hegemony, and the United States economy is on the verge of imploding. A massive real-estate and financial crash is coming.
Seriously???? Russia started the war in 2014 and ended the truce with a full scale invasion in 2022. If you can't acknowledge that, you are delusional.
Under international law and treaty with Russia, the Donbass and Crimea belong to Ukraine.
Getting what they deserve? Under what sadistic moral theory is that the case?
Has Bakhmut become a p*ssing contest between Putin and Zelensky? Putin thinks Bakhmut is so important that he has spent months and thousand of troops trying to take it. Zelensky has been defending it with everything he has. Outsiders think Zelensky should give up Bakhmut and save his resources because the city is not that important.
What I know is once you lose a city, it will be very hard to take it back later.
Has Bakhmut become a p*ssing contest between Putin and Zelensky? Putin thinks Bakhmut is so important that he has spent months and thousand of troops trying to take it. Zelensky has been defending it with everything he has. Outsiders think Zelensky should give up Bakhmut and save his resources because the city is not that important.
What I know is once you lose a city, it will be very hard to take it back later.
IMO, it is Zelensky who going all in for Bakhmut, and against the wishes of some strategist with him.
As the video states, this is a war of attrition and it will be benefit Russia b/c it has more soldiers available and the ability to keep producing weapons.
As for territory, I don't think it's the main objective at this point but either side gaining territory is preferred.
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, ( trying to avoid additional economic sanctions apparently,) and that's why thousands of people ended up dead.