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This is the dumbest war I've ever seen. Men being sacrificed on both sides for what, exactly?
Seems to me that it's to decide which corrupt dictator gets to rule over eastern Ukraine.
This is the dumbest war I've ever seen. Men being sacrificed on both sides for what, exactly?
Seems to me that it's to decide which corrupt dictator gets to rule over eastern Ukraine.
On Russian side - the reason behind it so that the West ( Washington in particular) wouldn't reach its objectives in Ukraine.
On Ukrainian side - good question ( what exactly they sacrifice their men for.)
You conveniently ignore what that appeasement lead to next. Hitler taking the rest of Czechoslovakia and splitting the rest of Poland with the Soviets. Eastern Ukraine is predominately Ukrainian, which you pretend doesn't exist as a nationality and Southern Ukraine is overwhelmingly Ukrainian.
1) It isn't clear that Hitler wanted war. He certainly wasn't prepared for war. And from reading Hitler's journals, he was surprised that his border dispute over lands taken from Germany after WWI turned into WWII. He was especially shocked that Britain allied with the Soviets against Germany.
2) Eastern and Southern Ukraine are a complicated matter. If you look at what the citizens of Ukraine chose as their ethnicity in the census from 20 years ago, only about 1/6th of Ukraine is ethnic Russian. If you look at what language people speak, it is 1/3rd Russian. But the battle lines in Ukraine aren't clearly defined by either language or ethnicity. A more reliable measure of political opinion would be the last election before the 2014 coup.
As I said before, there is a sizeable population of ethnic-Ukrainians living in Crimea, where independent polls show overwhelming support for separation from Ukraine. Moreover, there are many Ukrainians who believe Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus are all essentially the same country/people/civilization.
In any case, the point still stands, this is not Russia vs Ukraine. This is a Ukrainian Civil War that Russia became involved in after a US-backed coup. It concerns millions of ethnic-Russians and lands that are historically Russian.
With that said, I'm a separatist, so I support Western Ukraine's right to independence/sovereignty. But as a separatist, the lines on the map mean absolutely nothing to me. The fundamental issue here is that Western Ukraine refused to cede any territory whatsoever(not even Crimea), regardless of the feelings of an overwhelming number of people who live there, or even grant them greater autonomy
They have instead taken the position that every bit of territory is rightfully theirs, and that they have a right as a sovereign nation to mistreat anyone they don't like for the purpose of defacto ethnic-cleansing. And if they win this war, they will succeed.
I always find it ironic how westerners rant about democracy, but then completely ignore democracy when it comes to Crimea. They love to mention how all parts of Ukraine voted to leave the Soviet Union 32 years ago after the Soviet Union went bankrupt and was collapsing, but then declare that every vote since then is completely invalid. I've even seen many people in this thread defend Ukraine's mistreatment and even ethnic-cleaning of Russians because "Ukrainians are angry".
It amazes me how anyone can still believe the Ukrainians are the good guys. They're clearly the bad guys. That doesn't mean the Russians are good, but compared to the Ukrainians they are ****ing angels. I still have no idea why the Ukrainian people haven't murdered Zelensky. I can't think of anyone who more deserves to be murdered than Zelensky. If he survives this war then I will know there is no god.
"During the war, Tokyo Rose was not any one individual, but rather a group of largely unassociated women working for the same propagandist effort throughout the Japanese Empire.[3] In the years soon after the war, the character "Tokyo Rose" – whom the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) now avers to be "mythical" – became an important symbol of Japanese villainy for the United States.[1] American cartoons,[6][7] movies,[8][9][10] and propaganda videos[11] between 1945 and 1960 tend to portray her as sexualized, manipulative, and deadly to American interests in the South Pacific, particularly by revealing intelligence of American losses in radio broadcasts."
Nope, not a good fit for me, as far as I am concerned.
Because if I analyze situation correctly - this war is bad news for Putin personally, good news for whoever is going to replace him in Russia, and good news for American conservatives ( the ones who stand against this war, and don't believe that it benefits America in the long run.)
1) It isn't clear that Hitler wanted war. He certainly wasn't prepared for war. And from reading Hitler's journals, he was surprised that his border dispute over lands taken from Germany after WWI turned into WWII. He was especially shocked that Britain allied with the Soviets against Germany.
2) Eastern and Southern Ukraine are a complicated matter. If you look at what the citizens of Ukraine chose as their ethnicity in the census from 20 years ago, only about 1/6th of Ukraine is ethnic Russian. If you look at what language people speak, it is 1/3rd Russian. But the battle lines in Ukraine aren't clearly defined by either language or ethnicity. A more reliable measure of political opinion would be the last election before the 2014 coup.
As I said before, there is a sizeable population of ethnic-Ukrainians living in Crimea, where independent polls show overwhelming support for separation from Ukraine. Moreover, there are many Ukrainians who believe Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus are all essentially the same country/people/civilization.
In any case, the point still stands, this is not Russia vs Ukraine. This is a Ukrainian Civil War that Russia became involved in after a US-backed coup. It concerns millions of ethnic-Russians and lands that are historically Russian.
With that said, I'm a separatist, so I support Western Ukraine's right to independence/sovereignty. But as a separatist, the lines on the map mean absolutely nothing to me. The fundamental issue here is that Western Ukraine refused to cede any territory whatsoever(not even Crimea), regardless of the feelings of an overwhelming number of people who live there, or even grant them greater autonomy
They have instead taken the position that every bit of territory is rightfully theirs, and that they have a right as a sovereign nation to mistreat anyone they don't like for the purpose of defacto ethnic-cleansing. And if they win this war, they will succeed.
I always find it ironic how westerners rant about democracy, but then completely ignore democracy when it comes to Crimea. They love to mention how all parts of Ukraine voted to leave the Soviet Union 32 years ago after the Soviet Union went bankrupt and was collapsing, but then declare that every vote since then is completely invalid. I've even seen many people in this thread defend Ukraine's mistreatment and even ethnic-cleaning of Russians because "Ukrainians are angry".
It amazes me how anyone can still believe the Ukrainians are the good guys. They're clearly the bad guys. That doesn't mean the Russians are good, but compared to the Ukrainians they are ****ing angels. I still have no idea why the Ukrainian people haven't murdered Zelensky. I can't think of anyone who more deserves to be murdered than Zelensky. If he survives this war then I will know there is no god.
It’s obvious you should talk to some actual Ukrainians who have family there instead of rambling with your nonsense.
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They have instead taken the position that every bit of territory is rightfully theirs, and that they have a right as a sovereign nation to mistreat anyone they don't like for the purpose of defacto ethnic-cleansing. And if they win this war, they will succeed.
...
It is my understanding that the borders were set by the Soviet Union post WWII. The sovereignty of the government at Kyiv was guaranteed by mutual agreement by all the parties at the time of dissolution. They all agreed.
Later, Ukraine consented to destroy it's own nuclear capabilities in exchange for international guarantees which were signed by Russia and Belarus as well as other countries.
By this time it should have been a done deal, but Putin had other ideas. He fomented unrest in his neighbor's lands with propaganda, and sent provocateurs and weapons and his little green men, veterans of the Russian military, born in Russia and paid to fight in Ukraine as pretend 'rebels'. Perhaps these were mercenaries like Wagner.
I don't recall Ukraine expelling large portions of it's own population, so I don't know where you get this claim of ethnic cleansing by Ukraine. I am aware, however, of Russia kidnapping Ukrainian citizens and separating children from their parents. We also have reports of Russian soldiers abusing the populations in the occupied territories, and summarily executing Ukrainians.
Kind-hearted Ukrainian defenders spared the lives of Russian invaders. They dropped a grenade far way from the boat as a warning and let the Russians escape before destroying the boat. I would have killed those animals.
1) It isn't clear that Hitler wanted war. He certainly wasn't prepared for war. And from reading Hitler's journals, he was surprised that his border dispute over lands taken from Germany after WWI turned into WWII. He was especially shocked that Britain allied with the Soviets against Germany.
I don't believe that Hitler wanted a war in Europe, and definitely he didn't want a war with Great Britain.
This should explain it all, right there.
"Everything I undertake is directed against Russia. If the West is too stupid and too blind to comprehend this I will be forced to reach an understanding with the Russians, turn and strike the West, and then after their defeat turn back against the Soviet Union with my collected strength. I need the Ukraine and with that no one can starve us out as they did in the last war."
2) Eastern and Southern Ukraine are a complicated matter. If you look at what the citizens of Ukraine chose as their ethnicity in the census from 20 years ago, only about 1/6th of Ukraine is ethnic Russian. If you look at what language people speak, it is 1/3rd Russian. But the battle lines in Ukraine aren't clearly defined by either language or ethnicity. A more reliable measure of political opinion would be the last election before the 2014 coup.
Thank you, it confirms what I stated earlier, that this war is not about the "ethnic lines," as many imagine it.
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As I said before, there is a sizeable population of ethnic-Ukrainians living in Crimea, where independent polls show overwhelming support for separation from Ukraine. Moreover, there are many Ukrainians who believe Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus are all essentially the same country/people/civilization.
There are plenty of Russians/Belorussians still that believe in it as well.
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In any case, the point still stands, this is not Russia vs Ukraine. This is a Ukrainian Civil War that Russia became involved in after a US-backed coup. It concerns millions of ethnic-Russians and lands that are historically Russian.
This is a sentiment that I often see on Russian/Ukrainian sites, and this is the belief that the current Ukrainian government vehemently denies, even though part of them are ethnic Russians. ( Not Russian-speaking Ukrainians minding you, but ethnic Russians, plain and simple.)
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With that said, I'm a separatist, so I support Western Ukraine's right to independence/sovereignty.
So do I. The problem is - they won't be able to survive on their own as a state economy wise I suspect.
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But as a separatist, the lines on the map mean absolutely nothing to me. The fundamental issue here is that Western Ukraine refused to cede any territory whatsoever(not even Crimea), regardless of the feelings of an overwhelming number of people who live there, or even grant them greater autonomy
They have instead taken the position that every bit of territory is rightfully theirs, and that they have a right as a sovereign nation to mistreat anyone they don't like for the purpose of defacto ethnic-cleansing. And if they win this war, they will succeed.
100% correct, so as I've already said the motto of Ukrainian nationalists "Donbass will be either Ukrainian or desolate" confirms it all.
So the ethnic cleansing that some are lamenting about on this thread was coming originally from the UKRAINIAN side, not the Russian one.
And as you correctly pointed out, the ground for ethnic cleansing were cultural/political beliefs, not exactly the ethnic ones.
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I always find it ironic how westerners rant about democracy, but then completely ignore democracy when it comes to Crimea. They love to mention how all parts of Ukraine voted to leave the Soviet Union 32 years ago after the Soviet Union went bankrupt and was collapsing, but then declare that every vote since then is completely invalid. I've even seen many people in this thread defend Ukraine's mistreatment and even ethnic-cleaning of Russians because "Ukrainians are angry".
It amazes me how anyone can still believe the Ukrainians are the good guys. They're clearly the bad guys. That doesn't mean the Russians are good, but compared to the Ukrainians they are ****ing angels. I still have no idea why the Ukrainian people haven't murdered Zelensky. I can't think of anyone who more deserves to be murdered than Zelensky. If he survives this war then I will know there is no god.
All true yet again.
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