Ukraine War

[andywire]

Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould

Seems the Russian determination to capture Bakhmut is about getting a military victory of any sort, as there is little in the way of strategic value to justify the cost.

According to this report, the first wave of each new attack are the prisoners, the second wave are the recently mobilized, and the third wave are Wagner units, backed up by Russian artillery.

Apparently, it is a conveyer belt of soldiers to the slaughter.


https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/...bakhmut-a79672

That's what a war usually is. "Meat grinder" is a term used to describe this sort of battle. I think you can imagine why. Make no mistake, the Ukrainians and the mercenaries fighting over there are not having any more fun going through that nightmare. The Russians are no stranger to taking massive casualties in such engagements. But the war goes on. And that is the dilemma the west now faces. This war war sold off to people as something that would be quickly wrapped up... But here we are today.

[Listener2307]

Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould

Why is that?

What would you think if your spouse announced that he/she had ruled out divorcing you in 2022? It's Dec 13th!

[JohnBoy64]

Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould

Better to keep on the move while they have the momentum.

From a military history perspective that is how Gen Patton's Third Army swept across France so rapidly. They simply kept pressing the attack preventing the Germans from having time to regroup and counter-attack. Same principle applies here.

[serger]

Originally Posted by JohnBoy64

From a military history perspective that is how Gen Patton's Third Army swept across France so rapidly. They simply kept pressing the attack preventing the Germans from having time to regroup and counter-attack. Same principle applies here.

It swept so rapidly because Germany was done at that point. The best (and most) Wehrmacht divisions were destroyed on the Eastern front. Whatever they could throw on the Western side was second rate, very low quality, whatever you want to call it. Plus of course, the Allies had a total control of the skies. And Germans were still mostly worried about the Red army advance.

Not to mention much more willingness to surrender (on the Western front)

[GotHereQuickAsICould]

Originally Posted by Listener2307

What would you think if your spouse announced that he/she had ruled out divorcing you in 2022? It's Dec 13th!

Thanks. Now it makes sense.

[Leo58]

Originally Posted by Listener2307

If Ukraine prevails and Russia loses Crimea completely, it will mean the end of Russia as a player in the world market because Russia will lose all presence in the Black Sea. There will no longer be a Russia fleet afloat in that area. Ukraine will become a major player in both energy and food production.

With no Russian commerce entering or leaving the Black Sea, all activities will be shifted to St Petersburg and the Baltic sea. Thanks to Russian failure in Ukraine, Finland and Sweden will soon join NATO presenting Russia with exactly the situation it did not want.

.

NATO could accelerate that by blocking the Straits of Bosporus. Turkey owns both sides of it.

[JohnBoy64]

Originally Posted by serger

It swept so rapidly because Germany was done at that point. The best (and most) Wehrmacht divisions were destroyed on the Eastern front. Whatever they could throw on the Western side was second rate, very low quality, whatever you want to call it. Plus of course, the Allies had a total control of the skies. And Germans were still mostly worried about the Red army advance.

Not to mention much more willingness to surrender (on the Western front)

All true...but the underpinning goal was to prevent the Wehrmacht from regrouping which even under those circumstances they could still do effectively....Patton's attack was put on hold so that Monty could fight in Northern France to take out the V1 and V2 rockets that were pummeling London...in essence that took pressure off the Germans and allowed them to regroup and that led to a disastrous Operation Market Garden ...which the Germans were victorious. Point being Russia's forces are greatly degraded right now and they don't have many trained troops to rotate into their lines....so attack now before they do. Ukraine has been under full mobilization and they have a very effective NCO command structure...plus a highly motivated military.

[GldnRule]

Originally Posted by BusinessManIT

The biggest battle of the Ukraine war so far:

https://warnews247.gr/olethros-sto-b...i-sfyrokopoun/

The article is in Greek, but here is a partial translation:

Mayhem at Bakhmut: Over 10,000 dead Ukrainian soldiers in biggest battle of war - Which forces Russians trapped and pounded

Appeal of Ukrainian Paratroopers: "Get us out of here"
13/12/2022 - 16:59

Ukrainian entrapment in Slavyansk: "We fully control Seversk" the Russians say - Risko Zelensky: He is sending forces from Kharkiv!

Shocking are the figures for Ukrainian losses in Bakhmut, where the biggest battle of the war is taking place so far, which is expected given the build-up of forces to exceed even the siege of Mariupol.

The Ukrainian staff counts 10,000 dead soldiers out of a total of 30,000 and 100 tanks destroyed.

This battle, which is now developing within the urban fabric, will decide the future of the entire Donbass. With the Russian Army having managed to tie up all the experienced Ukrainian forces at this point, Kiev will not be able to raise its head again in an operation that the Americans and Russians have called "Meat Machine".

In fact, it is of great interest that even the British "shoot" V. Zelensky for his reluctance to withdraw the Ukrainian forces from the city in time.

Obviously they have realized the extent of the destruction that the Ukrainian Army will suffer at the moment when Russians and Belarusians are preparing for the free shot in Western Ukraine.

According to the British Daily Telegraph, the losses of the Ukrainian Armed Forces in the Bakhmut region amount to 10 thousand soldiers!

British: Over 10,000 dead Ukrainians in Bakhmut!
"The losses of the Ukrainian army near Bakhmut exceeded 10,000 soldiers, which was caused by the reluctance of the Ukrainian president Zelensky to surrender this city, writes the Daily Telegraph.

"The Armed Forces of Ukraine lost about 10,000 soldiers near Bakhmut because of Zelensky's ambitions and pleas not to surrender this city. The political decision of Kiev cost the lives of many Ukrainian soldiers and the daily losses exceed 200 dead and wounded. At the same time, the Ukrainian command often abandons its units, which are then dispersed by the Russian army."

Kiev recognizes that the position of the Armed Forces in the Bakhmut and Solendar region is very bad. Meanwhile, according to information, some days the losses of the Armed Forces literally soar, reaching up to 500 dead and wounded.

Hospitals and morgues in Bakhmut (Artemovsk) are full, a very large number of wounded never return to the battlefield.

Specifically, from the end of August to the beginning of December, the 54th and 59th brigades of the Ukrainian Armed Forces have lost between 84 and 112 tanks.

Most of the T-64, T-64BV and T-72M1 tanks have been destroyed near Podgorodny in the northern part of the city, as well as during the battles in the Kurdyumovka, Zelenopolya and Ozeryanovka areas.

A large amount of armored personnel carriers were destroyed in the "Empiroi" area where the Ukrainian Armed Forces were unable to intercept the attack of the Russian units.

In addition, due to intense fighting, most Ukrainian tanks show malfunctions, which makes the tank unfit for further firing.

Due to the cold weather, the Ukrainian tanks often remain with the engines running, which makes it easier for the Russian side to detect them at a distance of up to 7 km. Then they are fired with ATGM "Cornet".

Zelensky admits about the difficult situation in Bakhmut.

"The Ukrainian army may soon lose control of the town of Soledar in Donetsk," Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky announced.

He also acknowledged that a very difficult situation had been created for the Ukrainian Armed Forces in Bakhmut, Soledar, Maryinka and Kremenna.

Ukrainian analysts note that the Armed Forces of Ukraine continue the futile resistance only for political reasons. From a military point of view, everything is clear.

Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould

Seems the Russian determination to capture Bakhmut is about getting a military victory of any sort, as there is little in the way of strategic value to justify the cost.

According to this report, the first wave of each new attack are the prisoners, the second wave are the recently mobilized, and the third wave are Wagner units, backed up by Russian artillery.

Apparently, it is a conveyer belt of soldiers to the slaughter.


https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/...bakhmut-a79672

It seems the "value" is to use it as a 'killing field" and making the Ukrainians expend 10,000 dead (and probably double to triple that wounded) of their force.
Those poor, brave men...dying (or maimed) for a contrived line on the ground, the prosperity of the big political donating Military-Industrial Complex, and opportunities for kick-back schemes.
A peace deal would have certainly been better, and one was in place...but the West nixed it...they love war...as illustrated by those here that applaud every bomb blast and celebrate it with song...because the hate in their heart (for that which they don't even understand) is so deep.

[Ruth4Truth]

Originally Posted by Leo58

NATO could accelerate that by blocking the Straits of Bosporus. Turkey owns both sides of it.

You're assuming Turkey would cooperate with NATO against Russia. That's far from a foregone conclusion. Recent events have demonstrated, that Turkey's vote can't be taken for granted.

[ottomobeale]

Originally Posted by BusinessManIT

This warnews site is based in Greece. They seem to provide good information. But then, I'm not in Ukraine so cannot verify. Maybe everything we hear is lies?

Perhaps if Bakhmut falls to the Russians (or not) then we will be able to see who was right. You would think that they could not hide who controls (or will control) Bakhmut. But maybe they can hide that too. Propaganda at its finest.

I think it will fall eventually... As a trap. The Ukrainians need to grind down the Russians and this is a good place to do it.