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Too many people that label themselves "Libertarians" are like that. That's one reason why I don't consider myself a Libertarian even though I agree with many Libertarian principles.
When I hear the word libertarian, it is almost always in discussions like these, where the biweekly or monthly "let's clown on people who won't join the Red or Blue clique" insult festivals happen.
So what do I think when I hear it? Most of the time it's "sigh....here we go again." Same statist vs non-statist back and forth, same everything. One positive that does come out of it is watching the members of Red clique and Blue clique putting down their normal squabbles with each other long enough to join voices in insulting the non-statist kids. It's a twisted bit of comradery, but it does have a certain "awww, look at them getting along" flavor to it.
If I think anything beyond that, it's that very few people even have a clue what they believe or why, they just know they oppose what someone else thinks for reasons they again are totally unsure of.
My views are simple, as are the ones held by No_Recess, Frank, rebeldor and the other non-statists out here. It really only comes down to like four or five central tenets, and trying to walk that path as closely as one can in a world taken over entirely by one state or another. By "closely as possible" I mean what is pragmatically and logically sound according to one's rules for self-preservation within a system that despises individuality regardless of how much lip service one hears. The bottom line of all these principles is some expression of individual sovereignty. Non Aggression Principle adheres to individual sovereignty. Absolute property rights, voluntaryism, self-ownership, and natural rights? All expressions of individual sovereignty. The individual is born sovereign to themselves, with a full set of natural rights endowed by the very act of existence itself. Every last libertarian/anarchist principle stems from that one immutable fact. It's that freaking simple.
So simple in fact, it seems to infuriate anyone who doesn't subscribe to the thinking. Some of the replies to No_Recess in this thread are packed with all manner of vitriol, condescension, insult, etc. Why? Because he believes in individual sovereignty so hard that he's willing to....willing to......LEAVE YOU ALONE. Oh my dear baby Jesus, not that!! What do you mean....leave people alone to be free to live their life as they see fit? WTMF does that crap mean!!?!? How will we build the roads if we don't terrorize the populace with taxes, byzantine laws and a bazillion rules and regulations. WHO WILL BUILD THE ROADS!?!?!?!?! Think of the roads, for the love of all that is good and pure....THINK OF THE ROADS!!!
Never really understood the thinking that a giant behemoth state is a non-negotiable requirement in order to clear/prep/pave a road or to have someone read transfer knowledge to a kid. This massive, meddlesome, intrusive tyrant is required because there is simply no way a couple people and some equipment (you know, like the private contractors the government hires to actually build roads) could possibly pave a road. We must have the entire Leviathan that has grown so absurd that every adult in our society commits 2-3 felonies a day without even knowing it....because only such a beast can possibly pave a road. How does that thinking happen? And why is my suggestion that private people can and do build roads met with such outrage, disbelief and scorn? Heavy equipment and manual labor are not magic. Road crews aren't all Hogwart's grads who wave wands and say "thoroughfare PAY-VUM!" and make roads appear. It's blue collar workers being paid to do a task. Ever re-black or repour a driveway? Did the government do it, or did you hire contractors, or omfg...buy the stuff and do it yourself? I mean, I have actually mixed and poured cement before, and I don't recall having Snape or Dumbledore teach me the spell for it, so it can't be magic. What gives?
I tutor kids, for free, every year. I actually transfer knowledge, above and beyond what the state approved replicants in the Ministry of Truth require...and yet...I oppose the state? How can this be? I have taught rooms full of students things, and never once as an agent of the state. Yet when I say I am a non-statist, I am asked how will schools happen in my "utopia"? Millions of kids get homeschooled every day inside the state's geographic boundaries, and their biggest obstacle is a state that hates them for going outside the majority approved system and acting like individuals.
All of it is mind boggling to me.
Anyway, that's the kind of stuff I think when I hear the word libertarian.
Oh, not to them because all it takes is Trump spelling a word wrong on Twitter or Obama mistakenly saying 57 states for them to go back to their respective foxholes and kill...literally kill...someone to establish (in their minds) the righteousness of their team.
We libertarians are a long way from winning an election. We have to accept that we must align ourselves with the Republicans, especially Trump, as he is most closely aligned with us.
As a libertarian, if you believe in the Constitution, the autonomy of the individual, the rule of law and property right, you must support the Republican Party.
The current Democrat Party represents everything we hold in disdain. They believe in the group and the collective over the individual and openly advocate for an ever larger government on both the state and federal level. If any of you has been to California, you have seen what a disaster it is. Why would you want that for the rest of our nation?
As a Libertarian I certainly I am not accepting the current GOP as a good alternative to being a Libertarian. If you look at foreign policy and our interventionist policies, the war on drugs, civil liberties as in the patriot act no thanks. As well as letting people chose who to marry and if a woman should be allowed to end her pregnancy the GOP is been long standing wrong on those issues. And they keep trying to weave right wing christian ideals and force them on everyone else.
And the GOP is no better than the DEMS on controlling the federal budget. The tax plan was good but was too watered down. It should have been much better. And not even getting into all the bizarre things Trump has said that are totally counter to Libertarian values. The GOP lost the house because of Trump's antics and being completely unable to get anything done. They could not even fully repeal and replace Obamacare. Yet I am suppose to get behind them?
The DEM party has an almost equal amount of issues that I have problems with. Their love affair with socialism and their desire to make a bigger and more bloated government make them a no go also. I will never forget Obama's you did not build that speech. They are anti individual unless the person is part of one of their defined protected groups. Regardless the government needs to protect everyone and decide who needs protecting.
As a Libertarian I certainly I am not accepting the current GOP as a good alternative to being a Libertarian. If you look at foreign policy and our interventionist policies, the war on drugs, civil liberties as in the patriot act no thanks. As well as letting people chose who to marry and if a woman should be allowed to end her pregnancy the GOP is been long standing wrong on those issues. And they keep trying to weave right wing christian ideals and force them on everyone else.
And the GOP is no better than the DEMS on controlling the federal budget. The tax plan was good but was too watered down. It should have been much better. And not even getting into all the bizarre things Trump has said that are totally counter to Libertarian values. The GOP lost the house because of Trump's antics and being completely unable to get anything done. They could not even fully repeal and replace Obamacare. Yet I am suppose to get behind them?
The DEM party has an almost equal amount of issues that I have problems with. Their love affair with socialism and their desire to make a bigger and more bloated government make them a no go also. I will never forget Obama's you did not build that speech. They are anti individual unless the person is part of one of their defined protected groups. Regardless the government needs to protect everyone and decide who needs protecting.
We can do better than just give up and give in.
I agree. The GOP tax bill--which raised taxes on nonprofits and seemed to target upper-income people in "blue" areas--was unacceptable because of those two items.
The GOP was a great party until it became the party of country folk seeking revenge on liberals, at which point its "leaders" (if you can call people like Mark Meadows that) gave up principled conservatism. It's still better than Democrats, the GOP and Democrats each just represent a hostile faction of Americans.
I agree. The GOP tax bill--which raised taxes on nonprofits and seemed to target upper-income people in "blue" areas--was unacceptable because of those two items.
The GOP was a great party until it became the party of country folk seeking revenge on liberals, at which point its "leaders" (if you can call people like Mark Meadows that) gave up principled conservatism. It's still better than Democrats, the GOP and Democrats each just represent a hostile faction of Americans.
How is it acceptable for anybody to finance someone else’ mortgage?
When I hear the word libertarian, it is almost always in discussions like these, where the biweekly or monthly "let's clown on people who won't join the Red or Blue clique" insult festivals happen.
So what do I think when I hear it? Most of the time it's "sigh....here we go again." Same statist vs non-statist back and forth, same everything. One positive that does come out of it is watching the members of Red clique and Blue clique putting down their normal squabbles with each other long enough to join voices in insulting the non-statist kids. It's a twisted bit of comradery, but it does have a certain "awww, look at them getting along" flavor to it.
If I think anything beyond that, it's that very few people even have a clue what they believe or why, they just know they oppose what someone else thinks for reasons they again are totally unsure of.
My views are simple, as are the ones held by No_Recess, Frank, rebeldor and the other non-statists out here. It really only comes down to like four or five central tenets, and trying to walk that path as closely as one can in a world taken over entirely by one state or another. By "closely as possible" I mean what is pragmatically and logically sound according to one's rules for self-preservation within a system that despises individuality regardless of how much lip service one hears. The bottom line of all these principles is some expression of individual sovereignty. Non Aggression Principle adheres to individual sovereignty. Absolute property rights, voluntaryism, self-ownership, and natural rights? All expressions of individual sovereignty. The individual is born sovereign to themselves, with a full set of natural rights endowed by the very act of existence itself. Every last libertarian/anarchist principle stems from that one immutable fact. It's that freaking simple.
So simple in fact, it seems to infuriate anyone who doesn't subscribe to the thinking. Some of the replies to No_Recess in this thread are packed with all manner of vitriol, condescension, insult, etc. Why? Because he believes in individual sovereignty so hard that he's willing to....willing to......LEAVE YOU ALONE. Oh my dear baby Jesus, not that!! What do you mean....leave people alone to be free to live their life as they see fit? WTMF does that crap mean!!?!? How will we build the roads if we don't terrorize the populace with taxes, byzantine laws and a bazillion rules and regulations. WHO WILL BUILD THE ROADS!?!?!?!?! Think of the roads, for the love of all that is good and pure....THINK OF THE ROADS!!!
Never really understood the thinking that a giant behemoth state is a non-negotiable requirement in order to clear/prep/pave a road or to have someone read transfer knowledge to a kid. This massive, meddlesome, intrusive tyrant is required because there is simply no way a couple people and some equipment (you know, like the private contractors the government hires to actually build roads) could possibly pave a road. We must have the entire Leviathan that has grown so absurd that every adult in our society commits 2-3 felonies a day without even knowing it....because only such a beast can possibly pave a road. How does that thinking happen? And why is my suggestion that private people can and do build roads met with such outrage, disbelief and scorn? Heavy equipment and manual labor are not magic. Road crews aren't all Hogwart's grads who wave wands and say "thoroughfare PAY-VUM!" and make roads appear. It's blue collar workers being paid to do a task. Ever re-black or repour a driveway? Did the government do it, or did you hire contractors, or omfg...buy the stuff and do it yourself? I mean, I have actually mixed and poured cement before, and I don't recall having Snape or Dumbledore teach me the spell for it, so it can't be magic. What gives?
I tutor kids, for free, every year. I actually transfer knowledge, above and beyond what the state approved replicants in the Ministry of Truth require...and yet...I oppose the state? How can this be? I have taught rooms full of students things, and never once as an agent of the state. Yet when I say I am a non-statist, I am asked how will schools happen in my "utopia"? Millions of kids get homeschooled every day inside the state's geographic boundaries, and their biggest obstacle is a state that hates them for going outside the majority approved system and acting like individuals.
All of it is mind boggling to me.
Anyway, that's the kind of stuff I think when I hear the word libertarian.
Do you know why they freak out over the “live and let live” principal? Because many people, in their hearts, want to enslave others, forcing them to pay for the stuff they like, health care, child rearing, education, food, shelter and sexual entertainment. The worst is forcing others to pay for their own compassion!
Our libertarianism would prevent them from being the slave masters - what they truly are.
Last edited by lifeexplorer; 12-26-2018 at 07:43 PM..
I agree. The GOP tax bill--which raised taxes on nonprofits and seemed to target upper-income people in "blue" areas--was unacceptable because of those two items.
The GOP was a great party until it became the party of country folk seeking revenge on liberals, at which point its "leaders" (if you can call people like Mark Meadows that) gave up principled conservatism. It's still better than Democrats, the GOP and Democrats each just represent a hostile faction of Americans.
The original plan was to be able to do your taxes on a post card and get rid of all deductions period. Of course the lobbyists got in there and that never happened.
High tax states were forced to pay for their high taxes. I actually thought it was a good thing. There was an easy solution for those upper income people and that would be to demand lower taxes from those states.
I am registered Libertarian. Yet I agree on some Dems and Repubs. I strongly stand on the "more freedom, less government" leg.
The way I see it, we've been voting both Republican and Democrats in office, as presidents. Yet, look at all the problems. The Repubs will blame Dems, vice versa, and yet problems are never fixed. I say let's elect a Libertarian. Give em a chance. It surely can't hurt this country anymore than what has happened in the past. It's time to try something new. And if it don't work, well, that's 4 years not really wasted.
I've read the other day in the Smithsonian Magazine I get in the mail. Had something to do with all the wars that America has been involved in since the beginning of the nation. With that, all the years combined. I'll just say that there was 16 years that we were not involved in war. And what were some of the main political parties? Yep, Republican and Democrat. Yes, I know there were other parties, but are they still elected in office? No. Just those said 2. Maybe it's PAST time for a change in the way this country should be governed.
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