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Who was it that put to death millions of Jews in furaces and gas chambers? Was it not Hitler? You're not going to try to tell me he was Christian, are you?
Do you not understand that the Crusades were the response to the Muslim hordes, that were slaughtering Christians, threatening to wipe out Christianity (as is still their desire today)? The Crusades were to drive the Muslims back. Period.
It was the Muslim hordes that conquered Turkey and renamed Constantinople (which had been Christian), "Istanbul."
Hitler was raised Catholic and claimed he was doing God's work. A lot of German soldiers wore belt buckles that said "Gott Mit Uns", and the motto was written all over the German armament.
Hitler was raised Catholic and claimed he was doing God's work. A lot of German soldiers wore belt buckles that said "Gott Mit Uns", and the motto was written all over the German armament.
Google it.
Thousands of pictures were taken of Hitler. Show us one of him in church.
Hitler said what he was doing was for the good of Germany. Do you believe that to be true as well?
Again LeftNUts don't understand what "Separation of Church and State" means. I wonder if the atheist groups and ACLU will complain about this.. Most likely not.
All scripture is written by fallible men. The current books are found in the Christian Bible because of horse trading by men who met with their own agendas or at the behest of a sponsor at the Council of Nicea and campaigned for their own interests. Many other books were left on the cutting room floor. The Catholic Bible (IIRC) has five books not found in other Christian Bibles, and that is nowhere near everything that was available for inclusion.
The Scriptures were not written down in real time, but beginning somewhere in the second century. Add to that the fact that a lot of translations were done by scribes who were paid to slant them to the patron's views, and it is highly likely that what you are reading today is nowhere near the original text.
That said, the Bible and the teachings of Jesus are an excellent roadmap for living. His disdain for greed and accumulation of wealth and his ministry among the poor, the oppressed, the sick, the imprisoned, the diseased, and the outcast is most instructional as a guide for how we should conduct our affairs if we truly wish to follow Him. I only wish that Christians were less worried about campaigning to have the teachings of Jesus in public places and more concerned with putting Jesus back in Christians.
You have an incorrect understanding of what we call "Inspired Scripture." Men spoke from God, as the Spirit led them. God put the words in their mouths, and they wrote as the Spirit led them.
In a sermon I recently listened to on this very subject, it was pointed out that not one of the authors of the "Inspired Scriptures" ever apologized for the authority with which they wrote. That's because they understood the source of their words were from God.
They wrote other letters (to which you refer) which were not included, because they were not "inspired." Thus, you are correct when you say that men decided which were and were not "inspired." Ths was not done arbitrarily, however. It took careful study.
The other thing you do not understand is that the scribes were meticulous, and took care that every "dot and tittle" (where the expression comes from) was accurately transmitted. It was their job, and they took it very seriously (this is the kind of thing you learn about in bible studies, from people who have studied the history of the times, as well as the actual writings of scripture).
Your response above assumes that I do not know those things of which you mention. I do. Every point you make is answerable.
The Catholic Bible contains books that were not considered "inspired scripture." That is why they are not found in the Protestant bible. The Catholic church doctrine is mostly based on "tradition," what the Church has said, not on what the bible says.
The Catholic Mass, where Christ is offered again, and again, and again, as a sacrifice for sin. This is not scriptural. Scripture tells us that Christ died once for all, and that no other sacrifice for sin is required. Christ did it all when he was nailed to the cross. It is not necessary for him to die again (as is believed is actually taking place in the Mass).
Their teachins about Mary and she being "Queen of Heaven" is not scriptural, but tradition. The only "Queen of Heaven" found anywhere in the bible is the old testament pagan godess, the "Queen of Heaven." Nowhere in scripture is Mary deified, and it is Christ who intercedes on our behalf, not Mary. Mary cannot hear our prayers nor can she intercede on our behalf. She is dead. But, Christ hears our prayers, and He alone interceds for us.
The clash of Christ's teachings with the interpretation that modern American "Christians" have created to suit themselves is biting and painful. The European Christians I know tend to shake their heads in collective disgust.
The self-proclaimed "Christians" here in the US talk about the War on Christmas and, by extension, on Christianity, but conveniently neglect to look into the mirror and acknowledge themselves as Christianity's biggest enemies in their pursuit of greed, egotism, and consumerism.
Cafeteria Christianity is a much bigger threat than any Satanic Temple, Muslim, Atheist, scientific endeavor, Pope, or the US Constitution could ever be.
Yada, yada, yada. You don't know what Christians believe. What is a "cafeteria Christian?" I am not familiar with that new attack.
I am a Christian fundamentalist (that is to say, I believe the bible to be the word of God). Fundamentalism is not, by the way, some freakish cultic form of Christianity, but it is simply the reformed Christianity of the Protestant Reformation. Neither is "fundamentalism" to be confused with the "charismatic movement."
In short, you don't know what you are talkig about, and as a non-Christian, you have no "standing" (to use a legal term) to make any judgement.
Yada, yada, yada. You don't know what Christians believe. What is a "cafeteria Christian?" I am not familiar with that new attack.
I am a Christian fundamentalist (that is to say, I believe the bible to be the word of God). Fundamentalism is not, by the way, some freakish cultic form of Christianity, but it is simply the reformed Christianity of the Protestant Reformation. Neither is "fundamentalism" to be confused with the "charismatic movement."
In short, you don't know what you are talkig about, and as a non-Christian, you have no "standing" (to use a legal term) to make any judgement.
As a student of language, I would point out that "reformed Christianity of the Protestant Reformation" suggests that Christians don't seem to be able to agree on the "inspired" word of God. Instead, they reject one interpretation after another. If it were so "inspired", why are there so many different versions, interpretations, teachings?
That may have been true for the ORIGINAL writings, but they have been edited and altered numerous times by those in control to keep a tight rein on the people.
LOL!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyMack
The first Bibles were copied by hand allowing the Church to filter and edit as they saw fit.
Not true at all. Who told you this? That kind of thing comes from people who have a sincere desire and interest in discrediting the Bible, but it has no basis in fact.
There is a good source that discusses that question in great detail, and that is Josh McDowells book, "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" The first four chapters discuss how the bible was transmitted, and the Cannon of scripture.
You may not know that Josh McDowell was an atheist, until challenged in college by some Chistians whom he met and debated. He took up the challenge. What he learned made a believer out of him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyMack
Keep in mind until relative modern times the average person wasn't able to read the Bible themselves, it was the Priest that TOLD them what it said.
Even today, few Cahtolics read the bible. But we who are reformed Christians do. I have been studying the bible now since the early 80's. We have always sought out good bible teaching churches, and at one time we (for a short period before leaving Southern California) attended Shadow Mountain Community Chruch in El Cajon, where one of the best bible teachers there is, Dr. David Jeremiah, is Senior Pastor. It was there that we met Josh McDowell, where he gave his testimony of how he became a believer. We also met Oliver North there, who gave the sermon one Sunday.
Hitler was raised Catholic and claimed he was doing God's work. A lot of German soldiers wore belt buckles that said "Gott Mit Uns", and the motto was written all over the German armament.
Google it.
Hitler abandoned religion when he was quite young; long before he rose to power. Hitler was not Christian -- he exploited Christianity to appeal to the people, while his actions were completely in opposition to Christian beliefs. He saw Christianity as an impediment to his ultimate goals. So while the SS wore "Gott Mit Uns" on their belt buckles, it was just for show. They were explicitly anti-religion. Chaplains were not allowed in the SS. Hitler declared Nazism to be the state religion and replaced the Bible with Mein Kampf in schools.
If that's not enough, here's some of Hitler's quotes about Christianity. Sounds like a lot of posters around here:
National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things.
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State.
The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease.
It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ."
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Yada, yada, yada. You don't know what Christians believe. What is a "cafeteria Christian?" I am not familiar with that new attack.
